[lenze]

A disaster for my opponents!!

In fourth seat, South, NS VUL, I held

S – A
H – K3
D – QJ74
C – KT9642

East, in third seat, opened 2 Hearts., I tried three clubs.
West doubled, all pass.

West led a heart, and partner, bless her heart, tabled.
(Yes, I know she could have opened, but our style is very conservative)

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

West, obviously thought her DBL was negative. I made 6 when clubs were 2-2.

My question is, if West had passed., how should the auction continue?

[luis]

I refuse to answer questions where an opening hand starts with a pass.
Another perfect 5431 hand with 7 losers and 5 controls is passed.

Your pd should use whatever you have agreed for hands where you decide to pass an opening bid.

[hrothgar]

lenze, on Jan 8 2004, 09:11 PM, said:

A disaster for my opponents!!

In fourth seat, South, NS VUL, I held

S – A
H – K3
D – QJ74
C – KT9642

East, in third seat, opened 2 Hearts., I tried three clubs.
West doubled, all pass.

West led a heart, and partner, bless her heart, tabled.
(Yes, I know she could have opened, but our style is very conservative)

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

West, obviously thought her DBL was negative. I made 6 when clubs were 2-2.

My question is, if West had passed., how should the auction continue?

Tricky hand, made more so by the opening style.

From my perspective, 3 level bids by partner should be fit showing non-jumps.
Unfortunately, suit quality is too weak to consider 3S.

3S would be a standout call with

S KQ642
H T64
D 4
C A832

I'm torn between 4D as a splinter and 3H [ostensibly a stopper ask].
I'm pretty sure that I'd splinter.

[inquiry]

I will take a shot at it. 4D (splinter) showing a good passed hand, a good fit, and diamond shortage isn't a bad choice, and you will land in 5C (six clubs is just too much, can't reach that after the pass). However, 3S even on this bleeck suit is an ok bid, since if partner raises, you expect him to be short in hearts, on the upside, partner will know you are not bidding on six spades here (no weak two) so is unlikely to pass you with a stiff spade despite your first pass.

Maybe the auction would have been

Ps--Ps--2H---3C
Ps--3S--3NT--Ps
Ps--Ps

Ben

[lenze]

luis, on Jan 8 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

I refuse to answer questions where an opening hand starts with a pass.
Another perfect 5431 hand with 7 losers and 5 controls is passed.

Your pd should use whatever you have agreed for hands where you decide to pass an opening bid.

So you hold

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

And open 1 Spade in 2nd seat!!

Playing 2/1, partner bids 2D holding

S – J85
H – K63
D – KQJ98
C – K4

You will end up in 4S, one trick (at least) too high

Or partner might bid 2C with

S – A82
H – Q3
D – QJ5
C – KT932

Once again, one trick too high.

I am not against a weak opening approach, but it does NOT mesh well with a disciplined 2/1 system I had the honor once to have played with the master, Barry Crane. These hands, were of course opened, but we played Drury in ALL seats. That does not fit in with the 2/1 system I play now.

[Free]

Lenze, I would also open this hand 1S, and with the hands you give me, I wouldn't push for game immediately, because they are garbage!!! Every time you have 8 losers and only 7 slam points, so ur hand is potentially weaker than the opening bidder with only control cards and 7 losers (and 8 slam points)...

Free

[Trpltrbl]

lenze, on Jan 9 2004, 12:29 AM, said:

luis, on Jan 8 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

I refuse to answer questions where an opening hand starts with a pass.
Another perfect 5431 hand with 7 losers and 5 controls is passed.

Your pd should use whatever you have agreed for hands where you decide to pass an opening bid.

So you hold

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

And open 1 Spade in 2nd seat!!

Playing 2/1, partner bids 2D holding

S – J85
H – K63
D – KQJ98
C – K4

You will end up in 4S, one trick (at least) too high

Or partner might bid 2C with

S – A82
H – Q3
D – QJ5
C – KT932

Once again, one trick too high.

In my 2/1 the hand will respond 1 NT forcing with that crappy hand. And after any response it bids 3 sp showing a Limit raise with 3 Spades. And that will be the end of the bidding. 3 SP making.

Mike

[flytoox]

I dont think you can bid 6d even pd opened 1S, I dont think 6c is a good contract either. After pd's 3c, i will bid 3N with that hand, good control, and stopper. 3N rates to make most of time.

[flytoox]

[quote name='lenze' date='Jan 8 2004, 09:29 PM'] [/QUOTE]
I am not against a weak opening approach, but it does NOT mesh well with a disciplined 2/1 system I had the honor once to have played with the master, Barry Crane. These hands, were of course opened, but we played Drury in ALL seats. That does not fit in with the 2/1 system I play now. [/quote]
I agree that playing 2/1, sound opening is even more important than in other sys. The reason is that with good 12 or better, you will always force to game facing an opened pd. so if pd open too light, u will bid too many bad games.

[EricK]

[quote name='flytoox' date='Jan 9 2004, 11:01 AM'][quote name='lenze' date='Jan 8 2004, 09:29 PM'] [/QUOTE]
I am not against a weak opening approach, but it does NOT mesh well with a disciplined 2/1 system I had the honor once to have played with the master, Barry Crane. These hands, were of course opened, but we played Drury in ALL seats. That does not fit in with the 2/1 system I play now. [/QUOTE]
I agree that playing 2/1, sound opening is even more important than in other sys. The reason is that with good 12 or better, you will always force to game facing an opened pd. so if pd open too light, u will bid too many bad games.[/QUOTE]

If you play light openings then your partner won't force to game on a 12 count.

If your partner forces to game on a twelve count, then you won't open light.

That's what partnership agreements are all about.

Eric

[luis]

lenze, on Jan 8 2004, 09:29 PM, said:

luis, on Jan 8 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

I refuse to answer questions where an opening hand starts with a pass.
Another perfect 5431 hand with 7 losers and 5 controls is passed.

Your pd should use whatever you have agreed for hands where you decide to pass an opening bid.

So you hold

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

And open 1 Spade in 2nd seat!!

Playing 2/1, partner bids 2D holding

S – J85
H – K63
D – KQJ98
C – K4

You will end up in 4S, one trick (at least) too high

Or partner might bid 2C with

S – A82
H – Q3
D – QJ5
C – KT932

Once again, one trick too high.

I am not against a weak opening approach, but it does NOT mesh well with a disciplined 2/1 system I had the honor once to have played with the master, Barry Crane. These hands, were of course opened, but we played Drury in ALL seats. That does not fit in with the 2/1 system I play now.

For every single bid, every single convention, and every opening style there are a lot of hands that will produce a bad result.

I'm sure you can construct a lot of hands where opening 1s will lead to a bad result, I wonder why you didn't produce one where 1s is doubled for 1100, it's an easy task.

What matters is what happens in average. The modern approach for bridge dictates that you must open this kind of hand because IN AVERAGE it will lead you to a better result.

You can say you don't like it but please don't send silly examples where it won't work because that approach is a complete nonsense. Do you want me to post examples where opening 1s leads to a good result while passing is a disaster? Individual examples are not important, what counts is the best average action, you must understand this.

[mikestar]

All methods have tradeoffs and losing cases. The choice among methods and opening styles laregely comes down to what mistakes the partnership prefers to make. Playing 2/1, if we want to make life harder for the enemy, we open light. If we want accurate constructive auctions, we open sound. Larry Cohen states that he has played a very sound style, a middle of the road style, and an ultra aggressive style with Marty Bergen (maybe that should be "insanely aggressive"?) and has played winning bridge with all of those styles. Good partnership agreements and partnership harmony are more important than the exact technical merits of the methods, as long as these are within the boundaries or reason: if you routinely pass 14 counts instead of opening you are going to lose regardless.

[luke warm]

lenze, on Jan 8 2004, 11:29 PM, said:

luis, on Jan 8 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

I refuse to answer questions where an opening hand starts with a pass.
Another perfect 5431 hand with 7 losers and 5 controls is passed.

Your pd should use whatever you have agreed for hands where you decide to pass an opening bid.

So you hold

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

And open 1 Spade in 2nd seat!!

Playing 2/1, partner bids 2D holding

S – J85
H – K63
D – KQJ98
C – K4

You will end up in 4S, one trick (at least) too high

Or partner might bid 2C with

S – A82
H – Q3
D – QJ5
C – KT932

Once again, one trick too high.

I am not against a weak opening approach, but it does NOT mesh well with a disciplined 2/1 system I had the honor once to have played with the master, Barry Crane. These hands, were of course opened, but we played Drury in ALL seats. That does not fit in with the 2/1 system I play now.

anyone can result any hand (or any two hands).. the real question is, what's the best way to bid the north hand *most* of the time?.. personally i'd open it.. if pard game forces with a 2/1 and we're down, so be it.. won't be the last time

[inquiry]

[quote name='luke warm' date='Jan 9 2004, 07:16 PM'] [quote name='lenze' date='Jan 8 2004, 11:29 PM'][quote name='luis' date='Jan 8 2004, 07:30 PM']Anyone can result any hand (or any two hands).. the real question is, what's the best way to bid the north hand *most* of the time?.. personally i'd open it.. if pard game forces with a 2/1 and we're down, so be it.. won't be the last time [/quote]
You can open very lightly playing 2/1 if you and your parntership have agreements for dealing with it. If you open "light" then your 2/1 responses have to be stronger. If you open light a lot, maybe 1S-3C and 1S-3D, 1S-3H, should show 11-12 and goodish six card suit (I use these as fit jumps).

I have a mechanism discussed elsewhere, in that 1M-2C is very much like DRURY after a 1st or 2nd seat major opening bid --- or a true 2 over 1 game force with clubs. This allows you to open 1M on junky hands. This method was disucssed in another thread (BTW, this allows 1M-2M to be weak LOTT raise).

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

Trpltrbl, on Jan 9 2004, 12:28 AM, said:

lenze, on Jan 9 2004, 12:29 AM, said:

luis, on Jan 8 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

I refuse to answer questions where an opening hand starts with a pass.
Another perfect 5431 hand with 7 losers and 5 controls is passed.

Your pd should use whatever you have agreed for hands where you decide to pass an opening bid.

So you hold

S – K7643
H – A954
D – 4
C – A83

And open 1 Spade in 2nd seat!!

Playing 2/1, partner bids 2D holding

S – J85
H – K63
D – KQJ98
C – K4

You will end up in 4S, one trick (at least) too high

Or partner might bid 2C with

S – A82
H – Q3
D – QJ5
C – KT932

Once again, one trick too high.

In my 2/1 the hand will respond 1 NT forcing with that crappy hand. And after any response it bids 3 sp showing a Limit raise with 3 Spades. And that will be the end of the bidding. 3 SP making.

Mike

Oops I missed the Jack of D Well then a 2/1 response has to be made and the opener has to, at least in my 2/1 system, bid 2 SP. Now you'll end up in 4 SP. But that is not down yet. Even tho it is not looking good, but if spades is played for 2 losers you'll bring this home. Not against all chances

Mike

[Free]

If you open light in 2/1, you have to adjust ur normal 2/1 value...

[everton]

I like a 4D splinter raise. Either a cuebidding sequence or Blackwood now will get us to the good 6C.

[the hog]

Lenze, I assume you are playing a forcing pass system, else the auction makes no sense. 5-4 in the Majors and 5 controls is an opening bid in anyone's game.
Teach your partner to open opening bids. I totally agree with Luis' assertions here.

[Gerben47]

I agree with Luis here. With my regular partner we play agressive openings and 2/1 GF. This has not been a problem since we discussed style issues.

To illustrate that every convention or bid might produce terrible results, look what came our way yesterday.

My LHO risked opening 1NT (16-18) on this terrible hand:

AQx
Kxxx
Kx
AQxx

Since we play Woolsey (remember from another thread?) after this, without the penalty double hands included, my partner passed and when I reopened with double, holding xx JTxx AJ9xx Tx, my partner who held the remaining 16 HCP passed this out.

1NTx went 4 off, so one could argue that 16-18 NT is not safe since you can go for 1100 like this poor declarer.

Opening light may produce bad results, but the same is true for not opening light. I'll stick with light openings, thank you. Even if I didn't however, the actual hand would be an opening in any situation. Rule of 20, good controls, and the master suit. WTP?