[Al_U_Card]

Scoring: MP

P - P - 1♦ - P
1♠ - P - 2♦ - P
??

---

Playing modern 2/1, local club game. What is your call and why?

[inquiry]

If you really want new age, the "modern" players would have responded 2♥ to 1♦ (or 1♣) with this hand to show 5♠ and 4+♥ and weak hand. So in the new age, they could not hold this hand. I fall into that group as well, so I abstain in general.

If playing with a pickup partner and no agreement to play the above "reverse flannery by responder", I guess I would follow SAYC rules where a new suit by responder is forcing. So if I was stuck on this auction with these limitations, I would "pass" 2♦.

[Gerben42]

Playing oldfashioned stuff without the Reverse F, Pass.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you can either pass or bid 2H,
opener knows your a passed
hand, i.e. if he believes chances
are not existing, he will pass 2H,
give preference to 2S or rebid
diamonds.

And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[david_c]

Definitely pass. Even though being a passed hand means you have a non-forcing 2♥ bid available, you should still want a better hand than this for the bid.

Even if 2♥ was specifically defined as showing a weak hand like this, I would still prefer to pass! I want to stop bidding on this misfit as soon as I can.

Incidentally, if you want "new age", for me (playing "Siege" or my variant of Polish Club) the 2♦ rebid would deny four hearts. Problem solved.

[Al_U_Card]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 07:44 AM, said:

Hi,

you can either pass or bid 2H,
opener knows your a passed
hand, i.e. if he believes chances
are not existing, he will pass 2H,
give preference to 2S or rebid
diamonds.

And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).

With kind regards
Marlowe

Granted there are 8 losers for a trump fit. The problem is that with a 7 loser opener, pard will likely accept and you will be one trick short. The LTC evaluation does get a downgrade for the lack of intermediates here.....2 good cards and then blech!

[cherdano]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 06:44 AM, said:

And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).

Even when you are using a bad valuation method, you should downgrade for shortness in partner's suit. (If you treat this as an 8 loser hand, you are treating it the same as if you had just found a heart fit with partner's 1st suit being clubs.)

[bid_em_up]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

Why?

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

[P_Marlowe]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 09:15 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 07:44 AM, said:

Hi,

you can either pass or bid 2H,
opener knows your a passed
hand, i.e. if he believes chances
are not existing, he will pass 2H,
give preference to 2S or rebid
diamonds.

And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).

With kind regards
Marlowe

Granted there are 8 losers for a trump fit. The problem is that with a 7 loser opener, pard will likely accept and you will be one trick short. The LTC evaluation does get a downgrade for the lack of intermediates here.....2 good cards and then blech!

Hi,

A opener holding 7 loosers is a
min opener (*), which means he will
not accept game with any 7 looser
hand.
Opener knows I am passed hand,
if he can envision game oppossite
a passed hand, game will have play.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(*) You may say min opener in 3rd seat?,
no, but a min opener in 1st and 2nd seat.

[Al_U_Card]

bid_em_up, on Apr 12 2007, 09:31 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

Why?

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster

The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on Apr 12 2007, 09:22 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 06:44 AM, said:

And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).

Even when you are using a bad valuation method, you should downgrade for shortness in partner's suit. (If you treat this as an 8 loser hand, you are treating it the same as if you had just found a heart fit with partner's 1st suit being clubs.)

Ok. Would I invite, in case I would
not have been a passed hand? No.
I.e. I dont claim the hand is worth a
normal invite, but on the other hand,
the hand has some playing strength,
assuming we find a fit.
... and the partial in hearts / spades may
be better than the partial in diamonds,
because we may play a 5-1 fit.

All I am saying is, that you can introduce
hearts, because risk is fairly small and you
may even reach game and game is still possible
if you find a fit in a mayor, it depends a lot
on the required strength for a 3D jump rebid.
But you can also pass.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: In another post someone mentioned that
opener may have raised with 3 cards in spade,
if your partnership does this, than the upside
potential of a 2H bid goes down, if you rarely do,
than 2H gets more attractive.

[jdonn]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

P  -  P  - 1♦ - P
1♠ - P - 2♦  -  P
??

---

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Just one in a series of countless examples of why rebidding the minor should show 6, as I'm always telling my European and South American friends who love to do it with 5 At least I know if I pass I am not in a ridiculous contract, whereas they will have no clue where they belong.

[Apollo81]

Reverse F is meant to show hands like this, as has been pointed out. If you're not playing that then pass and hope for the best.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Apr 12 2007, 08:15 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

P  -   P  - 1♦ - P
1♠ - P - 2♦  -  P
??

---

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Just one in a series of countless examples of why rebidding the minor should show 6, as I'm always telling my European and South American friends who love to do it with 5 At least I know if I pass I am not in a ridiculous contract, whereas they will have no clue where they belong.

Those poor depraved people!

Imagine rebidding 2 minor on a 3=4=5=1, and discovering you have TWO 8 card fits, as you languish in your 5-1

[Al_U_Card]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 09:37 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Apr 12 2007, 09:31 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

Why?

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster

The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?

So here is opener's hand.

upon hearing the 2♥ rebid by the passed hand, 3♠ was offered and passed out, down 1.

---

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.

[Apollo81]

This thread begs an interesting question. I've noticed a trend recently where good players have agreed that 1m-1h-1s-1n-2h does not show extra values (you must jump to 3h with a good hand).

Might this be extendable to 1d-1s-2c-2d-2s?

[Apollo81]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 03:57 PM, said:

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.

With KQ10xxx of diamonds I would rebid 2♦, and I don't think it's a decision.

[jdonn]

Apollo81, on Apr 12 2007, 03:24 PM, said:

This thread begs an interesting question. I've noticed a trend recently where good players have agreed that 1m-1h-1s-1n-2h does not show extra values (you must jump to 3h with a good hand).

Might this be extendable to 1d-1s-2c-2d-2s?

No, the first auction is different since you are still looking for the correct major suit fit. In the second there is not nearly as much reason to introduce a new minor when you could just raise partner's major.

[the hog]

3 card support and a singleton. This is a 2S raise, and no, it is not close.
In answer to the original posted problem, I would pass 2D.

[1eyedjack]

I have known some who would respond 1H with 5xS and 4xH on a hand that is only worth one bid. You find a 5-4 Spade fit or a 4-4 Heart fit and miss out on a 5-3 Spade fit. But not all hands with 3 Spades would support 1S response anyway, so you are not always missing out on something that is otherwise attainable (I am assuming that Yrennalf is not not in force of course).