[Al_U_Card]

The_Hog, on Apr 12 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

3 card support and a singleton. This is a 2S raise, and no, it is not close.
In answer to the original posted problem, I would pass 2D.

I was really close to raising to 2S but the passed hand status of pard led me to prefer the 6-? fit over the 3-4+ fit. The baby H and the AK of C I think now tends more toward the S raise however.

[Fluffy]

pclayton, on Apr 12 2007, 06:13 PM, said:

Those poor depraved people!

Imagine rebidding 2 minor on a 3=4=5=1, and discovering you have TWO 8 card fits, as you languish in your 5-1

some of us (depraved people) would rebid 1NT with 3451 to avoid that, 1453 is the problem, you can't have it all .

[mikeh]

This is a tough one for me to answer, because so much depends not merely on methods (for me 2♥ here is usually an artificial one round force) but also style... as in the extent to which partner's 2♦ rebid tends to deny 3 card ♠ support.

It is 'wrong', imho, to argue that there is a standard approach to this 3 card raise issue, or, indeed, to the suit length that is or should be shown by the 2♦ rebid. For one thing, it is a style issue as to whether one rebids 1N on 1=4=5=3, or manufactures a temporizing 2♣ rebid or rebids 2♦. Similarly, where one draws the line between 2♠ and 2♦ is stylistic.

My preference on the hand in question is that even by a passed hand, the 2♥ rebid by responder is best played as ostensibly a one round force.

So I would not make the bid: I sympathize with the fear of the 5-1 ♦ fit, or even the 6-1 when a 4-4 ♥ fit was available, but the hand is too weak to persist in what will usually be the futile search for the magic hand.

Having said that, my style also has me raising 1♠ to 2♠ despite having poor texture and a good ♦ suit. My rationale is that this hand is actually pretty good in support of ♠s. Catch partner with a decent 5 card suit and the right 10 count, and game will be a very good spot... yet he may be passing 2♦ on KQ10xx xxxx Ax xx whereas he will likely make a move over 2♠.

So what is 'right' here, in the sense of general hand types is one matter, and what is 'right' on the actual hand is a somewhat different matter. There are 5413 hands on which I would make a one round 2♥ ostensible force, and there are 3=1=6=3 hands on which I would rebid 2♦, but they do not include the actual hands on display.

[bid_em_up]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 02:57 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 09:37 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Apr 12 2007, 09:31 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Playing modern 2/1, local club game.  What is your call and why?

Pass. Seems clear-cut.

Why?

Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.

So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.

Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster

The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?

So here is opener's hand.

upon hearing the 2♥ rebid by the passed hand, 3♠ was offered and passed out, down 1.

---

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.

I would bid 2S with this hand.

This hand is much better for spades than many hands with 4 trump.

It has 1st & 2nd round club controls, a good side suit, and 2nd round heart control.

It does contain a spade honor.

2S is the most encouraging "sounding" bid you can make, without dramatically overstating the values of the hand.

All partner really needs is something like AQxxx Axx xxx xx and 4S is practically cold. So on this holding, we actually want to encourage partner to bid again. Even if you end if 4S on a 4-3 fit, it will not necessarily be bad, as the heart ruffs will be taken in the short trump hand, and the diamond suit can provide the required tricks.

On the other hand, if my hand was Jxx x KJxxxx AQx, I would not be quite as eager to raise to 2S (although some would), since the diamond suit is lacking in texture.

[Flame]

Not even close for me, add the Q of club and i still pass.

[Adebisi]

If u cant bid 2H with that hand nat and nf, then u need to change system or whatever:)

[Flame]

Adebisi, on Apr 14 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

If u cant bid 2H with that hand nat and nf, then u need to change system or whatever:)

Partner showed diamonds and about 11-14 hcp u have 7 with a misfit why the hell do you think its important to bid 2♥ now ?
On misfits stay low.
Even if i had a non forcing 2♥ it is probebly better to pass.

[Al_U_Card]

Funny how people like to have their bid mean what they have in their hand and not what the bid means......for me in standard (2/1 notwithstanding and modern as well...) that 2H bid shows values and has no place being used with this misfit.

The judgement of rebidding 2D instead of 2S is debatable and easy to accept based on agreement. The denial of values is another thing entirely. Pass is a call that often expresses well your values and it can be used judiciously.

[jdeegan]

So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.
For me, the ♦ suit is too good, and the ♠ support too weak to raise 1♠ to 2♠.