1x-1y-2NT-3y?
#2
Posted 2007-January-27, 19:16
Hands with no slam interest bid 4 major.
#3
Posted 2007-January-27, 20:02
Agree with playing Wolff, but rather than "hands with no slam interest bid 4 major", which contains the implicit and possibly erroneous assumption that y is a major, I'd say "hands with no slam interest just bid game somewhere; hands with no game interest (unlikely, but possible) must pass." Wolff is designed for the times when you find passing unpalatable, and want to sign off in a suit.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#4
Posted 2007-January-27, 22:11
are you saying something like 1h-1s-2nt-pass-3s? if this is the case then yes forcing.
#5
Posted 2007-January-27, 22:43
blackshoe, on Jan 27 2007, 09:02 PM, said:
Agree with playing Wolff, but rather than "hands with no slam interest bid 4 major", which contains the implicit and possibly erroneous assumption that y is a major, I'd say "hands with no slam interest just bid game somewhere; hands with no game interest (unlikely, but possible) must pass." Wolff is designed for the times when you find passing unpalatable, and want to sign off in a suit.
I agree. Even as counter-intuitive as it may be (I wanna bail out in my suit!) the WJS tends to cover a number of the weaker/longer versions of the target hands. Sometimes with 5 in the suit and 4 hcp (everyone shows THAT hand) you are on the horns of a dilemma but what part of sayc is foolproof?
#6
Posted 2007-January-28, 00:03
#7
Posted 2007-January-28, 00:13
This seems sort of like asking how many spades Opener has after 1♣-p-2♦-P-2♠. If 2♦ showed a major two-suiter, then a spade preference. If 1♣ was Precision, maybe 2♠ is some sort of Greek letter asking bid.
-P.J. Painter.
#8
Posted 2007-January-28, 04:35
In theory, you have enough for game here, so it *should* be forcing. OTOH, just in case opener has 18 and responder has some poorish 6 (or some 5 count that he couldn't stand to pass), it's just barely possible that this is a signoff bid.....just barely.
In practice, at the table, if playing with a new/unknown/pickup pard, I'd size him up: Is he on the youngish side, and does his preferred CC include lots of the Bergen-esque gadgets? If so, I'd assume that he thinks this is forcing.
If he seems to be an older/more conservative type, I'd assume he thinks this is non-forcing.
All in all, a good argument here to agree to play something intelligent like Wolff signoffs, or Transfers after 2NT rebids, or even just some kind of NMF. One of these gadgets will see you through situations like this one, without having to wonder if 3y is forcing.
#9
Posted 2007-January-28, 06:06
#10
Posted 2007-January-28, 06:54
TLG
#11
Posted 2007-January-28, 08:29
If you play it as forcing, you can bid everything naturally, with pass as the ONLY weak bid.
Both ways are playable, the forcing way having the advantage of being more natural.
#12
Posted 2007-January-28, 08:32
Undiscussed, with a pick-up, it's undiscussed. I wouldn't pass. I would take the blame if I should have passed.
#13
Posted 2007-January-28, 13:24
That said, in most of my partnerships, I prefer it to be non-forcing. Forcing hands can bid 3C (checkback) to find 3 card support for responders major.
So many experts, not enough X cards.
#14
Posted 2007-January-28, 15:00
bid_em_up, on Jan 28 2007, 01:24 PM, said:
That said, in most of my partnerships, I prefer it to be non-forcing. Forcing hands can bid 3C (checkback) to find 3 card support for responders major.
I prefer your method or NMF (being a 15-17 NTer) but most of my PD's prefer Wolff.
#15
Posted 2007-January-29, 13:22
Unless you have some form of checkback, responder needs to be able to bid 3 of his suit, confident it cannot be passed, in two obvious situations:
1) he has a 5 card major. He cannot tell whether the partnership should play 3N or 4Major... especially when he has a 5332 with a weak doubleton in a suit other than opener's.
2) he has a one suiter with slam interest: he cannot simply jump to game if 3Major is nonforcing, since the jump to game merely gets to game, without slam interest. Having to fake a side suit in order to establish a force is a needless complication, leading to all kinds of confusion, especially when opener fits the second suit.
The downside is that one has to either pass 2N, when playing 3Major is preferable, or overbid to game somewhere.
To me, the choice is a no-brainer. Worry about the right partscore or try to play the better game and/or explore slam? I'll take my chances on missing 3Major when it is the only making partscore, and I'll clobber the '3y non-forcing' crowd on all the important hands.
However, there is an even simpler solution: play something over 2N rebids: I am a BIG fan of transfers: I think they are more powerful/flexible than Wolff, which in turn is better than new minor forcing... which in turn is better than nothing.
#16
Posted 2007-January-29, 13:31
mikeh, on Jan 29 2007, 07:22 PM, said:
Funnily enough, although I play a very complex system of transfers after a 1NT rebid, in my most system-heavy partnership we play everything as "natural and forcing" by responder after a 2NT rebid.
What we have done however is codify opener's rebids somewhat, particularly after 1C (could be short) - 1M (could have longer diamonds) - 2NT - 3C in order to sort out the size of our various potential fits. We've also put a lot of clarity into the auction 1C - 1H - 2NT - 3D to sort out if responder is 4-5 or 5-5 (or 4-6) in the reds.
Compared to our methods, transfers gain by getting the 4-4 major suit fit in the other major played the right way up. They lose when looking for a minor-suit slam.
I play Wolff in another partnership. We never sign off in 3M (even though you can systemically) - it's mainly used to get 4-other-major right-sided.
#17
Posted 2007-January-30, 01:27
But I think if you have these agreements like nmf, wollf signoff or transfers, there is no need to play 3y as forcing any more.
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#18
Posted 2007-January-30, 15:30
Codo, on Jan 30 2007, 02:27 AM, said:
But I think if you have these agreements like nmf, wollf signoff or transfers, there is no need to play 3y as forcing any more.
This is 100% wrong.
If you play wolff, then 3y is 100% forcing: you use the 3♣ checkback to get out, and the 3major to force (at least that is the way I learned it). If you play nmf, 3M is forcing because you need it to set trump when you hold a 6+ suit and too much to simply bid game, and an inappropriate hand for blasting.
If you play transfers, then 3y is not natural, and it is a forcing bid.
I suppose that one could play that the wolff relay followed by 3M would be forcing, but that is not the way I have seen it played.
#19
Posted 2007-January-30, 16:19
-P.J. Painter.
#20
Posted 2007-January-30, 17:05
kenrexford, on Jan 30 2007, 10:19 PM, said:
Why only the ladies?
Are they players than the men and hence more worth consulting?