[kenrexford]

Who in their right mind asks the men at the bridge club anything?

[pclayton]

SteelWheel, on Jan 28 2007, 02:35 AM, said:

I know I'm a lonely voice in the wilderness here, but of all the "modern style" default agreements that are out there, I think that weak jump shifts are among the worst. Nobody is ever going to convince me otherwise. So the "limited by failure to WJS at first round" argument is not going to carry much weight with me.

In theory, you have enough for game here, so it *should* be forcing. OTOH, just in case opener has 18 and responder has some poorish 6 (or some 5 count that he couldn't stand to pass), it's just barely possible that this is a signoff bid.....just barely.

In practice, at the table, if playing with a new/unknown/pickup pard, I'd size him up: Is he on the youngish side, and does his preferred CC include lots of the Bergen-esque gadgets? If so, I'd assume that he thinks this is forcing.

If he seems to be an older/more conservative type, I'd assume he thinks this is non-forcing.

All in all, a good argument here to agree to play something intelligent like Wolff signoffs, or Transfers after 2NT rebids, or even just some kind of NMF. One of these gadgets will see you through situations like this one, without having to wonder if 3y is forcing.

I don't particularly like WJS either, but they are considered pretty standard in casual partnerships these days.

They do help define this sequence, however.

[cherdano]

I don't think WJS have much to do with this sequence. When you have a shapely 4-count with a 5-card suit, then that's not a WJS for most, and still you would like to sign off in 3 of your suit (or 3 of opener's suit) if possible.

[whereagles]

I like transfers here too, though the "pass = weak, else = GF" style works quite ok as well.

I disagree WJS are a bad convention. They are very descriptive and put a lot of pressure on LHO, who sometimes is tempted into an indescretion in a very, very dangerous situation (because opener is unlimited and knows EXACTLY what responder has). Of course, this assumes you use WJS correctly, i.e., with

QJTxxx
x
xxx
xxx

and not, say,

Qxxxxx
KJx
xxx
x

[SoTired]

Forcing because in "standard" (aka Goren) 2N is almost game-forcing, so the only non-game-forcing action is Pass. It is only a relatively recent idea for almost game hands to look for a better part-score.

[awm]

Agree that standard is forcing.

On this sequence, the hand where you want to get out at the three-level is pretty rare. Yes, occasionally you can win by signing off, but much of the time your "win" is getting down one instead of down two. I think it's worth trading the ability to stop at the three-level for improved slam bidding on hands where you will often be in the borderline game/slam zone (because opener is so strong). Elianna and I play pretty simple methods here (just NMF) and I think this is superior to playing Wolff signoff and likely breaks even with transfers. The ability to make a forcing three-level bid that agrees opener's minor suit is extremely useful and we've found a number of minor-suit slams this way. It's also nice to be able to immediately distinguish slam tries with a six card major (we bid 3M forcing) from tries with a five-card major (we bid NMF).

[mikeh]

awm, on Jan 31 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

Agree that standard is forcing.

On this sequence, the hand where you want to get out at the three-level is pretty rare. Yes, occasionally you can win by signing off, but much of the time your "win" is getting down one instead of down two. I think it's worth trading the ability to stop at the three-level for improved slam bidding on hands where you will often be in the borderline game/slam zone (because opener is so strong). Elianna and I play pretty simple methods here (just NMF) and I think this is superior to playing Wolff signoff and likely breaks even with transfers. The ability to make a forcing three-level bid that agrees opener's minor suit is extremely useful and we've found a number of minor-suit slams this way. It's also nice to be able to immediately distinguish slam tries with a six card major (we bid 3M forcing) from tries with a five-card major (we bid NMF).

Sorry, Adam, but anyone who thinks that nmf breaks even with transfers has never played transfers... .or has misunderstood how to play transfers. I encountered an analogous comment from a local player who said that she didn't see any advantage for two way new minor compared to old fashioned new minor.... she had never played two way.

I have played both, and, having learned transfers, will never willingly use nmf over 2N rebids.

[Apollo81]

Forcing in std.

Similar to 1x-1y-3x-3y, which is also forcing.

These break the normal pattern of what is forcing, that's why they're confusing.