Rebid with 1-4-4-4
#1
Posted 2007-January-24, 04:53
playing sayc you open 1d on:
♠ 5
♥ KQ94
♦ QJ93
♣ AT63
p responds 1♠, what now? 1NT or 2♣???
#2
Posted 2007-January-24, 05:08
Case in point: if partner is weak with 5-4 majors we can still find our hearts fit if I rebid 1NT.
#3
Posted 2007-January-24, 07:53
If I bid 1N with this hand, partner will be unhappy with his 4S contract with:
AQxxxx, xx, Axx Kx
And there is no good reason to bid anything other than a direct 4S over 1N.
#4
Posted 2007-January-24, 07:55
#5 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-January-24, 07:57
I also don't see why Winston's hand has to bid 4S directly, that hand can just go through NMF and then bid spades. If partner still bids NT why wouldn't we want to play in NT?
#6
Posted 2007-January-24, 07:58
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My thinking here is if I am weak, who cares if I find a 4/4 fit? Unless you are a true matchpointaholic, devising a system to allow you to find the perfect partscore is self-defeating; the scoring method other than MPs is designed to reward game and slam bidding and minimize partscore accuracy.
I would, with a weak hand, be as content to rebid 2S with a weak 5/4 in the certain knowledge that I was facing at worst a 5/2 fit.
#7
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:02
Jlall, on Jan 24 2007, 08:57 AM, said:
I also don't see why Winston's hand has to bid 4S directly, that hand can just go through NMF and then bid spades. If partner still bids NT why wouldn't we want to play in NT?
What's the point in giving all that information to the opponents when you know the contract you want to play?
1D-1S
1N-2D*
2H-2S
2N-3N
1D-1S
1N-4S
If you were on lead, which auction gives you the greatest chance of "guessing" right?
(Youth...they like to bid a lot.)
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I never hold 2/2 minors. If I ever did, I'd have to rebid my ugly Jxxxx and take my chances or guess. Nothing is perfect but my preference is to not worry to much about getting the weak hand bidding perfect.
Also, in my example hand notice how much better the 4S contract becomes if opener held singleton J or K or spades. I'm not saying never bid 1N, but I'd like to have a singleton honor card to do so.
#8 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:07
BUT since you insist on talking about game bidding, partner could easily have 5 spades, 4 hearts and an invite. If you bid 1D-1S-2C, partner will have an easy 2N bid and you will pass. However if you rebid 1N partner will bid some kind of checkback and invite in hearts which you will accept. So if you have a low HCP game with a 4-4 heart fit you can find game by bidding NT.
Seriously I don't think it will matter much what you do if partner is about to drive to game. You have enough room easily figure everything out (1D-1S-1N-2D-2H-2S-3C, or 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H, it doesn't matter too much). For partscore bidding I would much rather just rebid NT. You're right, I might on occasion play a 5-1 but I bet it's far more likely that you will play a 4-2 (on an auction where partner will go out of his way to false preference).
#9
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:09
1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥*
3♥-?
* FSF
You have now defined your shape (could also have been 0454, maybe 4445, 1453), but you range is still 11-18 HCPs and since all five denominations are still open neither cue-bidding nor serious 3NT are available, maybe not even Last Train.
Do you play FSF as GF or only invite+? If it's GF you can miss 4♥ when responder has 5-4 or 6-4 majors and invitational strength. If it's only invite+ you can't even show your shape as in the above auction because it might take you too high.
#10 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:12
Winstonm, on Jan 24 2007, 09:02 AM, said:
Concealment is great but a 6322 hand type with not great spades doesn't seem to already know where he wants to play if partner could easily have a stiff spade (and even if partner has promised 2 spades it's not really clear where that hand should play).
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What about 2-3? I think everyone would bid 2D over 2C with KQxxx xxx Kx xxx routinely since game may well still be on. False preferencing to keep the auction open for partner who has a wide range of shapes and strengths is a necessity.
And it's not like you really want to play 4-3 fits either with this hand if you could have played NT.
#11
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:15
Jlall, on Jan 24 2007, 09:07 AM, said:
BUT since you insist on talking about game bidding, partner could easily have 5 spades, 4 hearts and an invite. If you bid 1D-1S-2C, partner will have an easy 2N bid and you will pass. However if you rebid 1N partner will bid some kind of checkback and invite in hearts which you will accept. So if you have a low HCP game with a 4-4 heart fit you can find game by bidding NT.
Seriously I don't think it will matter much what you do if partner is about to drive to game. You have enough room easily figure everything out (1D-1S-1N-2D-2H-2S-3C, or 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H, it doesn't matter too much). For partscore bidding I would much rather just rebid NT. You're right, I might on occasion play a 5-1 but I bet it's far more likely that you will play a 4-2 (on an auction where partner will go out of his way to false preference).
The argument is not about whether there is a scientific method to bid the hand but if that method overall is superior.
I certainly appreciate your points that you can - to a degree - have your cake and eat it, too, by being more scientific, but at the same time that bit of science also paints a picture of your hands to the opponents who will be leading and defending.
Maybe my bias comes from reading too much Terrence Reese while learning to play - he was a huge advocate for "bashing" and leaving opps in the dark.
I seem to remember reading that Hamman said "Bobby and I tend to bash into game if we think we can make it."
Maybe it's the age thing - we old guys still like to make the opps guess. (Probably because we don't play as well as you, JL, so we have to get lucky.)
#12
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:22
If using NMF (or some kind of Checkback), I can see your point about 1NT.
What if you don't use NMF (or some kind of checkback)?
Would you then still bid 1NT?
#13
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:25
helene_t, on Jan 24 2007, 09:09 AM, said:
1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥*
3♥-?
* FSF
You have now defined your shape (could also have been 0454, maybe 4445, 1453), but you range is still 11-18 HCPs and since all five denominations are still open neither cue-bidding nor serious 3NT are available, maybe not even Last Train.
Do you play FSF as GF or only invite+? If it's GF you can miss 4♥ when responder has 5-4 or 6-4 majors and invitational strength. If it's only invite+ you can't even show your shape as in the above auction because it might take you too high.
Yes, but this is all academic if we do what we were supposed to do in the first place: open 1H. But I guess now I'm REALLY showing my age.
The debate stems from the concept of playing 5-card majors - a Goren player would have no trouble with this hand and it's auto 1H bid; however, with the advent of 5-card majors, we have other problems with which to deal.
We are forced to find a minor suit bid with 1444 and a rebid over 1S. Your points are well taken and it is simply a matter of which way do you want to obfuscate the bidding from here - 1N has good arguments; simplicity has something going for it as well. The important thing to understand is neither is perfect, that you and partner have the same ideas, and you accept with a shrug your bad results that may occur from time-to-time due to your choice.
It's hard to argue with Justin's reasoning, and 1N may well be the better bid as it gives you more ways to find the right contract and the only downside is the added information to opponents. (Like I said - too much Terrence Reeese influence in my youth.)
#14 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:27
What about the times when partner bids 3N over 1N and the opponents don't know what to do? Then aren't they guessing? Maybe it's an age thing but your auction will be something like 1D-1S-2C-2H-3H-3N in that case where they know your entire shape.
What about when partner passes 1N, aren't they guessing more because my shape range is wider? There are other auctions to consider than the times when partner has 6 spades and a game force that you are not considering. I'm not really sure how you can argue that you bid 2C rather than 1N because you like to bash and I am scientific, but that seems like a giant leap from the logic train.
#15 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:31
ArcLight, on Jan 24 2007, 09:22 AM, said:
If using NMF (or some kind of Checkback), I can see your point about 1NT.
What if you don't use NMF (or some kind of checkback)?
Would you then still bid 1NT?
I honestly don't know what bids mean not playing at least normal NMF. I guess jumps are forcing and 2 level is natural NF? But then how do you bid invitational hands, and how do you find 5-3 spade fits? Sorry, I don't really know how to answer it's like asking me how I'd bid over a 1N opener if I didnt play stayman or transfers
#16
Posted 2007-January-24, 08:38
#17
Posted 2007-January-24, 14:41
#18
Posted 2007-January-24, 15:13
I don't automatically takeout to 2♠ holding a 5 bagger either over 1N. Somehow we manage to always land on our feet
#19
Posted 2007-January-24, 15:54
#20
Posted 2007-January-24, 16:15