[hallway]

Steve & Team

From the opposite end of the bridge playing spectrum I wish you every success in your endeavours.

If the general membership take pause and think about the opportunity your efforts (and believe me it is going to take effort ) can provide for them they too will see that TOP FLIGHT can /will add a WHOLE NEW DEPTH to all that BBO makes possible for the world wide bridging community.

I am sure that the Beginner Intermediate Lounge membership will become avid Kibitzers - mind you it is my desire that they become GROUNDED in the BASICS before aiming to take FLIGHT

*********
Just a quick word to the wise :-

"the title says it all ......it is for Gold Stars" hmmmmm

well I too thought my Private Club's Title of Beginner Intermediate Lounge said it all ! - it has been suggested that I should change it to "Bridge Under Construction" - the door is in splinters thanks to the rampaging hoard of NON beginner intermediates who have battered their way through it.

[bglover]

Thank you for your kind words Maureen. We appreciate it.

I can honestly tell you that I have had an exhausting last few days. I lacked many email addresses, many more were wrong and many emails never went through. It has taken a lot of work to get people aware of the club, although once they have heard about it the response has been nearly universally positive. There is much much more work to be done. We haven't contacted even half of BBO's stars yet. But we are confident the efforts will pay off.

I would like to take this oppourtunity to make a special thanks to the people we have recruited to speak with foreign- speaking stars on our behalf. Farfie and Ritong spoke to the French Stars for us and Rado has been handling the Bulgarian Stars. We have just recruited an Italian but his name now escapes me. Without these people we could never accomplish our goal. Jols. Ece and myself are more grateful than they could even imagine.

A hearty thanks to them!

[keylime]

OK, I am going to stand up and be heard here. I 'm hearing a lot of "concern" and "worry" that this club will be too exclusive. I strongly disagree with this notion. Even hinting at it, considering the dynamics involved with the potentially divisive personalities involved - not kosher, not fair, not being truly honest with the people.

I firmly believe that this club is a great addition to the BBO community, and if it adds to us, then I will eagerly support it. The elite in order to properly prepare, must face the elite. Furthermore, a lot of the time the best open a table, they get the thrings of kib'ers, and guess what - the kib'ers blurt out the characteristics of the hand. That does not protect the field or the integrity. I frankly want the elite to have a private place to cope with the numerous different approaches that they will face - realize, they are people too, they do learn, even though they are light-years ahead of me. Thusly, they need a protective environment in order to make the mistakes just like we do, and learn from them.

Lastly, the pros, they will still play in the lobby, rest assured. We have no reason to feel shorted or cheated out - they will still come out, play bridge, laugh and cry with the rest of us. Fear not, this sub-community is a GREAT thing, and I wish it only the very BEST.

[inquiry]

I am all for it, in fact it must be a fabulous, wonderful club, simply because it excludes people like me. It was Groucho Marx who phrased my view of this gold star club perfectly.... when he said, "I do not care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members" Of course should someone go insane and slip up and put a gold star by my name, then well, to heck with Groucho...I would say sign me up.... hehehe

Good luck Steve and all.

Ben

[badderzboy]

As a beginner / intermediate - I think this club can only be a great thing for BBO.

It is an honour to watch a table with one Gold star but the opportunity to watch a table of 4 says it all.

We get the opportunity at Vugraph events to watch World class players when the opportunity arises but the tournaments will allow us to do this MORE frequently and also to attract more World class players to what must rate as the top place to learn and play bridge across the world.

BBO has given the thirst to learn to this challenging game and I believe this club will insipre far stronger players to acheive even greater heights.

Those who are worried by the exclusivity - How many would play with a table of Gold stars now to match their skills?

I wish all the best of luck in this venture and look forward to kibbing a tournament soon and who knows in 2020+ I might even play there lol :-)

Steve

[Gerben47]

What's the point? If they want to play against each other they can just open a table or a team tournament.

[luke warm]

that's true, they can do just that... as can everyone else.. but when there's a tournament type setting, with all players in the same relative flight, there's more chance to play against a greater number of their peers.. not to mention the chance this gives addicted kibbers (like me)

[csdenmark]

Quote

What's the point? If they want to play against each other they can just open a table or a team tournament.

Right Gerben - that was really also my point.

• Even our http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ are very good bridge players they are mostly those not qualifying for the big events we often have in Vugraph.
  
  
• They mostly fail not to play according to convention cards. The http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ knows quite well they would have won absolutely nothing playing without convention cards. - It is simply so that all good bridge players always plays according to convention cards. It is very poor that this new club have no intensions to contribute to a better standard.
  
  
• If the http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ want to have me in the audience they will certainly need to act as an example for all setting the standards for auctions, information(cc + alert), play, language, comments/analysizes. - Not all from the very beginning - but the intensions for that must be there by the management of the club if this is going to be of interest to me!

[Rhutobello]

Hey Claus, I think you can be a bit harsh here

I also think we are shooting on the wrong people :

The founder of Top Flight have done a great job, and the partisipants will surly be great players, and I think they will be great to watch. I wish them all the luck

BBO on the other hand might have slept in the prosess.

A) They have not put up clear limitations for the club.

B)Have they asked themself:
When you take away the gold members (or a Strong group)from main club, you promote another great group of players to be the highest-ranking member of the same club. These players have had the opportunity to play against "better” opponents, but this is now taken away. They will first try to attend High Flight, if this is impossible, and there are no way they can qualify, they will start feeling that BBO give them no challenge, and may leave. This will always promote next group forward, and the same feelings will again rise.

C) If such a club was nessesary for BBO to promote itself, it should be done from BBO, with a board who determind who shall be member.

I think the founder of the club have been "very nasty" ageinst it's gold members with following statement:
Now, stars are able to bring in non-star players if they so choose. They do not have to, but they may. So, not everyone will have a star, but most will.

I can imagine they will be floaded with request, and favour from friends or for friends of friends and so on, and if one say no, they can always go to the next :
(That's why rules are important 8))
Good luck ;D
Edvin

[csdenmark]

No Edvin I am not too hard.

If somebody want to lift from the ground and therefore want to be admired by others - then they must live up to a standard which can be used as an example for others to be heading for. Some don't want that - I think that is the persons Fred has told about who are qualified for http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ but who don't want the responsibillity they feel to carry such ones. - I respect such very much.

Except from the missing convention cards - I can only recognize Rado as an example for others. - And Rado is normally also the only http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ I will watch for a longer period of time.

I agree with you Edvin - if this was important to BBO promotion - Fred would have handled it himself.

[doofik]

I don't quite understand the problem with forming yet another club on BBO. So it is elitist, is that anyone's problem? No one is twisting anyone's arm to kib, to join, to do anything. I find the criticism here to be of the "I don't qualify therefore let me complain". Why don't you wait and see what happens down the line before you anticipate, whatever it is that you anticipate to criticize us.

Lines are clearly drawn what qualifies a player to become a member of Top Flight. Just give us some credit that we know how to say "NO". None of us is able to play in Top Flight, we'd dilute the level to no end. We're doing it to give the best a chance to compete among themselves. What is the problem???

[bglover]

I notice Claus has a private club for Precision players only.

My, that is VERY EXCLUSIVE. I would guess 90% of the players on BBO (ok maybe 75%) couldn't be in Claus' club. I couldn't. I don't play Precision. Claus, you segregationist, how dare you start a club like this! You are polarizing BBO people. We can't join. How dare you set restrictions like that? Did you start this club to help anyone but yourself? Maybe so you would have a warm and comfy place for you to play and feel that you at least would have some like competition? Certainly it wasn't to benefit the majority of the players? I think your club is a TERRIBLE idea and should not be allowed. Why? BECAUSE I CANNOT JOIN IT.

Do you enjoy me villifying your club in public? No? Well, please consider what you are doing here!

We would all be better served if people like you, who go out and do one thing (create an exclsive club with restricted membership) and then criticize people for doing something similar, just kept your mouth shut. I have tried to respond to questions/concerns openly, honestly and politely here. You, on the other hand, have made several statements that appear to have no purpose other than to stir trouble. So, I am finding it harder to remain polite.

As to edvin's comment that BBO should have done this itself... They could have, and had they asked us to stop our endeavor and they would take over the reins, we would gladly have said "Sure, go ahead, you are in a better position than we are to promote the idea." No one said that, but Fred, Sheri and Uday all accepted our invitation, so I think we can safely assume they at least tacitly approve of what we are doing.

[uday]

Now, now, no fighting. Just to clarify one small point: I don't consider myself a topflight or even a "TopFlight" player. Not that I wont help 2over1 promote the club - I will , because I think it is a a good idea and might work - but even had I the ability, I'd lack the time to play.

[inquiry]

I agree that claus's tone is too negative. But Steve you could join his private club, all you have to do is be willing to learn to play precision. I mean, I don't believe he excludes anyone learning to play precision, as that is his goal... to give precision players a place to play, and learn, together.

Claus, like Richard has a position he likes to push. Richard likes to push HTML convention cards as the wave of the future. Claus would like to see ANY convention card filled out. I think most of his post (I havne't reread it) was a plea to get the golden boys to fill out their cc when they play, and he would not kibitz them until they do... he wants them to lead by example.

But I think he misunderstands gold star players. I doubt they sought the gold star, and for the most part, are not comming to the BBO to provide entertainment for Klaus or any of the rest of us, but rather for themselves.

As far as the gold star club, I have a) volunteered to serve as a commentator at a table if needed, asked a few gold star friends to join (and did not ask them to drag me as a partner), c) and hope to see it take off. On the otherhand, I have also predicted it will not really take off. There simply doesn't seem to be enough gold star members to make it feesible. Sure, you might get a few five table tourments (that will be 20 gold stars who want to play at the same time for the same amount of time). IF the gold stars are diluted with "experts" who lack stars, you might have a better chance, but then the selection criteria will produce ill-will among many... "blank and blank" expert who is an idiot got in but my friend "so and so" did not. I like the clear identity of must have a gold star to get in. Although this will put more pressure on FRED who hands them out.. (I can see Fred's email box now... "come on fred, you gave "guy1" and gold star and everyone KNOWS guys 2, 3 and 4 are way better than him but no gold star.. what is the deal????"

Anyway, these reservations aside, I hope like heck it takes off. I like nothing more than good competition, whether I am playing in it or watching it. And the gold star club seems an ideal shot at creating such in the BBO.

[bglover]

I apologize if my last post seemed harsh... I was trying to make a point and perhaps my anger got the better of me some... Was not my intention but it is HARD to take some of the things being said by Claus as anything but outright negativity.

If he doesn't like it, fine, that's his or anyone else's right. But for him to continually say it's a bad idea unless his ideas (which are idiosyncratic at best) are used and a bad idea if they are not is hurtful. Each of my teammates in this endeavor has read his posts and we were all upset by them. We three have a right to be upset. We are working very hard on a project we hope will benefit everyone on BBO.

To fill these pages with that sort of negativity (AND USING THAT HUGE TYPE/PICTURE THAT IS SURE TO BRING HIM NOTICE) and sit idly by was more than I or doofik could take... We are working hard to make BBO a better place for all of us strictly out of altruistic tendencies. We want BBO to thrive even more.

Had Claus said "Great idea... I hope you require partnerships to post cc's and alert all bids fully for specs"
he would have made same point without openly villifying what is being done.

It hurts when people take something that is filled with good intent and openly villifies it, I am sorry. There was absolutely no need for that.

[DrTodd13]

I think that there already is an elite community on BBO. It
doesn't have a name but it exist. Sometimes they are nice
enough to let me peer through a window at them. The
folks on the inside know each other. Beyond the gold stars
which is obvious, the gold stars know who the good non-stars
are. I'm sure the gold stars want the finest quality partners
and opponents and wouldn't be on BBO if they weren't
already getting that.

I'm with Ben. I have nothing against anybody's free association
but I don't think this club will take off. There aren't enough
gold stars. So, I'm just wondering. The purpose of the gold
star was for kibitzers to know who to watch. I think the stars
are serving their purpose well; we can all find a good table to
watch. The purpose of this club seems to be for gold stars to
find great tables to play at. I haven't heard any gold star state
here that that has been a problem. Even if it is a problem, then
assigning gold stars a new label, (i.e., members of the TopFlight
club) won't seem to help the problem. If you have sufficient
density of gold stars then you will find great tables.

[doofik]

In as much as you're right that there appear to be cliques of players on BBO, they're not organized to allow them a tourney among themselves only. I think that to do that, there has to be some kind of a semblance of an organization. That's the purpose of Top Flight.

We seem to be growing by leaps and bounds. Players who have not played much on BBO have been coming out of the woodwork to join which says one thing to me, the idea is good. How it develops further, we will have to wait and see.

[bglover]

The whole purpose to this (beyond bringing more star players to BBO) is to provide an avenue for these people to practice against several opponents of similar abilities rather than just one pair.

We will be quite satsified if we draw a minimum of 4 pairs per tourney (that's a team match). The members can be sure when they log on at an appointed tourney time to find a few or more stars at BBO and can be sure they will have an opportunity for good practice time against varied opponents.

Hopefully, word of the concept will spread to other players at other sites, bringing BBO new star-worthy players who wish to avail themselves of the opportunity to play in this sort of competition and there will be growth that way.

We are prepared, as I stated earlier, to invite in non-star players of worthy accomplishment if the roster is not large enough to sustain ongoing matches of at least 4 tables. We recognize that might be necessary but hope that it is not.

If we need to go that route, we will consult with our members to ask which BBO players who do not have stars already should be invited in. We know we need a "critical mass" of people for it to work.

[csdenmark]

Trying to hit 'The Precision Team Bridge Club' on BBO you are simply trying to hit the wrong target.

This club is open to anyone applying for membership. Nothing required except to press the button on BBO. Then I add all to memberlist. That story is really no longer than that - except maybe I know of a few not playing and not knowing any Precision versions and with no intensions to learn or to play that system. As long they want to be members themselves they can stay as members - no problem.

That club is completely open - in fact it started without any knowledge of what a BBO-club was. We hoped to be able to organize invitional tourney's there. But in fact the club-function on BBO right now cannot produce very much. Therefore you in another thread may have noticed a long list for wishes to the coming next update of BBO. Even restrictions for pair tournaments was a feature added later to the client than the club was started.

I blame you and the 3 others rightfully I think. I blame you not to take the http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ under your wings telling them they must now meet the responsibility their http://groups.msn.co...*wlDtjczbVBXquQ gives them and which one they have chosen themselves to carry. - And then show them a way to do so!

I really don't care about the club itself. It is not of my concern. But of course I wonder how you can be able to open a private club with the solely intension to use it as a tool for restriction of tournament-entry. Others have been deprived that right we all know - and also Fred has earlier expressed himself regarding that kind of using the private club facility.

[fred]

Quote

I really don't care about the club itself. It is not of my concern. But of course I wonder how you can be able to open a private club with the solely intension to use it as a tool for restriction of tournament-entry. Others have been deprived that right we all know - and also Fred has earlier expressed himself regarding that kind of using the private club facility.

You are correct that we do not allow people to
create clubs solely for the purpose of restricting
entries to tournaments.

Most likely I did not read the e-mail from Ece that
asks me to create the topflight club carefully
enough or I would have raised this point with her.

In any case, the club has been created now and
the managers have been trying to promote it so
I am not going to close the club.

Hopefully when the new version comes out (soon)
people will not have to use clubs in this manner
as there will be a lot of new and powerful ways
to restrict tournament entry.

At some point we will probably purge a bunch of
existing clubs in which nobody plays.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com