[inquiry]

NS Vul, Dealer EAST

you south hold...

♠	JT9542
♥	A42
♦	K8
♣	8

Bidding
Pass - 2♦ - 2NT* - DBL
Pass - Pass - 3♣ - DBL
Pass - ?

*2NT = defense to multi showing club suit
2NT-dbl = penalty oriented

Ben

[Free]

Pass. If you double a transfer bid as penalty (and it's NT), it's ridiculous to double the transfered suit as takeout...

[paulg]

Not that I feel that this is a multi opener, however I now seem to have working defensive values and partner has made penalty doubles.

Clearly pass is incorrect as it's too obviously the right bid

[Trpltrbl]

Free, on Jan 24 2004, 01:34 PM, said:

Pass. If you double a transfer bid as penalty (and it's NT), it's ridiculous to double the transfered suit as takeout...

First X says he has penalty of , he can bid 3 as TO X. 2nd X says he is very happy and don't make him unhappy by bidding anything. Having 7 is your problem, and will be discussed after the hand is over. Just because you play multi their is no reason to open it every chance you get.

Mike

[mishovnbg]

There are several important questions after weak partner's opening and opponent's intervention:

• Do we play take out X or penalty X? In my opinion one of reasons of pre-empt is opponents can go too high and I prefer to play with penalty X. So in example X is penalty.
  
• If we play penalty X, what should we bid with hand for take out X ? In example we have easy 3♣ bid for take out. But, if our oppenents didn't use science bid and did simple overcall, things are more complicate . We then have to use some kind of Fishbein convention. My favourite is 2NT take out after 2 level intervention and 4♣/♦ leaping Michaels style take out at 3 level.
  
• If we play penalty X, what should be bidding of new suit - is it forcing, show fit..? Because we can't X for take out and bid again later, new suit must be RF in my opinion and not necessary show fit.

Misho

[inquiry]

Everyone is right, of course, playing without a specific follow up agreement, the double here is penalty. Misho does a good job of discussing a variety of continuations (penalty? takeout? cue-bid as takeout?).

Clearly a north pass would be "forcing" after the double of 2NT.

What was the disaster? North held.

♠	AQ863
♥	K3
♦	A74
♣	AT9

♠	JT97542
♥	A42
♦	K8
♣	8

7♠ is of course laydown. A south that opens 2♠ or 3♠ will no chance of playing 3♣X . Yes, I was south, and yes my partner bid his hand this way, being certain my major was hearts (i generally don't open 2♦ with 7 card suit, but there are times), and yes, I passed 3♣[COLOR=red]X. Almost made me give up multi-2♦, but then I discovered Garrazzo 2/3 dbls. In a forcing pass situation below game, an immediate double shows 2 or 3 cards in the suit they bid, pass shows 1 or 4+. And bidding shows void or else a weak hand not willing to penalize the oppoents.

Playing Garrazzo 2/3 double, over north's double, south would bid his suit knowing that EW have at least a 9 card fit minimum. Now, sure you wouldn't DOUBLE 3♣ with north's hand... But if you play multi, you may want to consider adding this 2/3 double to your bag of tricks. Works very well after redoubles, btw.

Ben

[paulg]

inquiry, on Jan 24 2004, 06:05 PM, said:

NS Vul, Dealer EAST

you south hold...

♠	JT97542
♥	A42
♦	K8
♣	8

Bidding
Pass - 2♣ - 2NT* - DBL
Pass - Pass  - 3♦ - DBL
Pass - ?

*2NT = defense to multi showing club suit
2NT-dbl = penalty oriented

Ben

Tough luck on the hand in question. The Multi 2D remains very popular in UK tournaments, but its inability to distinguish the major, albeit normally for preempting purposes, is one reason why it is less popular now amongst experts.

Coincidently in Andrew Robson's column in The Times yesterday he said, as everyone wants to bid over preempts these days, that there was an emerging "expert" trend for opening 1♠ with little defence (to encourage an unopposed auction) and 3♠ with some defence (happy to hear enemy competition).

I think Ben's hand may fall into this category.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben!
No need to play direct X as optional (Garozzo 2/3), if you don't bid X(XX) with hand, where you can't penalize at least 2 suits. With such hand, like in example or with 1 suited hand, after forcing bid like 2NT transfer or take out X, you can simple pass and X or bid your suit later. Your p know now it will be optional, not penalty X.
Generally: 1. If your direct X is penalty (XX or previous penalty X - then all subsequent X are penalty. 2. If your direct X is optional, then partner's X from reopen position is penalty or take out, because you already deny optional X.
In example:
2♦-(2NT)-Pass!-3♣
Pass -Pass - X=optional-Pass
3♠...

Hi Paul!

Quote

Tough luck on the hand in question. The Multi 2D remains very popular in UK tournaments, but its inability to distinguish the major, albeit normally for preempting purposes, is one reason why it is less popular now amongst experts.

I am not fan of multi, but it remain most popular among the experts - I did statistical research, posted here in forum, for expert pairs that represent their countries at european championship - more than 50% of them use multi!!!

Misho

[paulg]

mishovnbg, on Jan 26 2004, 12:49 AM, said:

Hi Paul!

Quote

Tough luck on the hand in question. The Multi 2D remains very popular in UK tournaments, but its inability to distinguish the major, albeit normally for preempting purposes, is one reason why it is less popular now amongst experts.

I am not fan of multi, but it remain most popular among the experts - I did statistical research, posted here in forum, for expert pairs that represent their countries at european championship - more than 50% of them use multi!!!

Misho

It's always interesting to see how trends develop. I'm not sure where the Multi-2D was invented, but it rapidly became very popular at all levels in the UK but is slowly being replaced by weak 2♦ or a multi with hearts as the only weak option.

Although Misho's research shows that it is still popular in Europe, only 2 of the 9 British pairs used it in the last Europeans with a weak 2♦ exceeding the 50% threshold :-)

We should see the current trends at Malmo in June :-)

Paul

[Gerben47]

Many Dutch experts still use the Multi, and this hand is not a counterexample. This situation is very tough and cannot be dealt with without good agreements.

The double of 2NT should set up a forcing pass and therefore your partner should pass 3H. Double of 3H means he wants to double 3H if you have spades, and if you have hearts opponents have psyched.

Normally a double of a major after Multi is pass or correct, but after the 2NT double this changes to "pass = double or correct". So you bid the unlikely 3S and partner should now move towards slam.

[bearmum]

WHY open multi 2 with SEVEN spades?????????

[inquiry]

bearmum, on Jan 26 2004, 06:53 AM, said:

WHY open multi 2 with SEVEN spades?????????

Because I thought it was the RIGHT bid with this hand..... This seven card suit headed by no top honour (AK or Q) looks like a six card suit to me when vulnerable. Why do you ask with so many QUESTION MARKS? You get a bunch of them for Christmas or find a great sale on them somewhere? One is usually enough!

[Free]

This is actually an awfull multi! First of all, you don't show the suit right away (that the advantage and disadvantage of multi ofcourse), and second and most important, your points are in other suits! Put the King in ♠ and it would be a good multi imo. I don't mind opening multi with a 7 card, because if you have too much losers for a 3♠ bid you would have to pass.

With this hand I'd still open 3♠, despite the vulnerability...

[Trpltrbl]

Free, on Jan 26 2004, 12:43 PM, said:

This is actually an awfull multi! First of all, you don't show the suit right away (that the advantage and disadvantage of multi ofcourse), and second and most important, your points are in other suits! Put the King in ♠ and it would be a good multi imo. I don't mind opening multi with a 7 card, because if you have too much losers for a 3♠ bid you would have to pass.

With this hand I'd still open 3♠, despite the vulnerability...

Agree.

Mike

[irg20]

Hand given looks like a pass to me.

Second in at red pd should expect to me to deliver 'classical' preempts (at both the two and three level) rather than this hand that contains good defensive values and little offense.

Ian

[jdulmage]

first off, multi was not developed to be used on a hand like that

second of all, pass the second double, you have already killed the cat.

[bearmum]

inquiry, on Jan 27 2004, 03:29 AM, said:

bearmum, on Jan 26 2004, 06:53 AM, said:

WHY open multi 2 with SEVEN spades?????????

Because I thought it was the RIGHT bid with this hand..... This seven card suit headed by no top honour (AK or Q) looks like a six card suit to me when vulnerable. Why do you ask with so many QUESTION MARKS? You get a bunch of them for Christmas or find a great sale on them somewhere? One is usually enough!

GEE I'm sorry you got offended with by question marks - all I was TRYING to do was to express incredulity - sorry if I offended you -- but still think your answer was a real over-reaction