[inquiry]

In the recent 6-5 thread, there was some discussion of the problem of bidding these kind of hands. Here ae a few of the very strong two suiters. Now I am not saying these were the best bidders on BBO. In fact there is evidence of really bad bidding on some of them. I just grabbed some for general display of the problems, and potentially open a discussion of rather you should open 2C or one of your better suit (these were some of the STRONGEST two suiters based upon hcp) -- or perhaps something else.

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Here is one where the pairs "got it right", see if you can figure out how.

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

Ok, here was one that was simply too difficult to bid too badly...

Oct 6, 2006 Nice hand. Neither table bid clubs naturally. At one table bidding was
2C-2NT*-3D-5D-6D

At other
2C-2S-3NT

Getting in both suits is not always so easy. Surely all of us woud be able to show our suits and find the obvious 7C

---

[inquiry]

I;m pretty sure almost everyone would open all eight of these hands 2♣, or in the case of hand seven, a forcing 1♣.

It is interesting to see how you might bid these hands, and how minor (or major changes) might alter your auction. After you figure out your auction to hand one, try it again changing the heart Queen and Spade King for small cards in the same suits.

Exchanging out more than half of north;s hcp and NS should still land in seven clubs.

How does the removal of the five hcp from hand one to hand one-a alter your auction? Feel free to use reasonable double dummy auctions. Remember in the "real world" neither pair in a team game even mentioned clubs naturally.

---

[keylime]

Ben,

The last example hand (and hand 7) is a nightmare for forcing clubbers to untangle, because the strong 5-5 minor hands are very difficult to manage over 1♣-1♦. This has given me considerable food for thought.

[awm]

Some likely strong club auctions for Sam and me on these hands:

1.
1♣(1) - 1♥(2)
1♠(3) - 1NT(4)
2♣(3) - 2♦(5)
2♥(3) - 2♠(6)
2NT(3) - 3♣(7)
3♦(3) - 3♥(8)
3♠(3) - 4♣(9)
4♦(3) - 4♠(10)
4NT(3) - 5♠(11)
7♣

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) 4+♠ and 5+ points, 2-6 AKQ points
(3) Relay
(4) Balanced, three-suited, or ♠+♦
(5) Balanced or three-suited
(6) 0-2♥
(7) Balanced, 4234 or 4243
(8) 4234
(9) 4 AKQ points
(10) One of top three spades, no top club. Will have either ♥K or ♦Q here.
(11) One top diamond, one top heart, the top spade is the king.

2.
1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
1♠(3) - 2♠(4)
2NT(5) - 3♦(6)
4♠(7)

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) Either 0-4 hcp, or a very strong GF
(3) 4+♠, maybe longer minor, forcing one round
(4) 0-4 points, 3-4♠, if 4♠ then a really bad hand
(5) Ask for location of values (usually game try, here a slam try)
(6) Help in diamonds (must be shortage, looking at opener's hand), no club card
(7) Short diamonds and nothing in clubs is not particularly encouraging

3.
1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
1♠(3) - 2♠(4)
4♣(5) - 4♠(6)
Pass

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) Either 0-4 hcp, or a very strong GF
(3) 4+♠, maybe longer minor, forcing one round
(4) 0-4 points, 3-4♠, if 4♠ then a really bad hand
(5) Splinter, slam try
(6) My hand is AWFUL

4.
1♣(1) - 2♣(2)
2♦(3) - 2♥(4)
2♠(3) - 3♣(5)
3♦(3) - 3♠(6)
4♣(3) - 4♠(7)
7♦(8)

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) 5+♣ no major, 5+ points 2-6 AKQ points
(3) Relay
(4) 4♦
(5) 2245
(6) 4 AKQ points
(7) One of top three clubs, diamonds, no top spade
(8) Partner has either the ♣K+♥Q or the ♣Q+♥K; either is fine.

5.
1♣(1) - 1NT(2)
2♣(3) - 2♦(4)
2♥(3) - 3♠(5)
4♣(3) - 4♥(6)
4♠(3) - 4NT(7)
5♣(3) - 5♦(8)
6 or 7♠(9)

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) 5+♥, 5+ hcp, 2-6 AKQ points
(3) Relay
(4) 4+♦
(5) 3640; slam usually has prospects opposite this shape...
(6) 4 AKQ points; must be ♥KQ+♦Q or involve ♦A
(7) Zero or two top hearts
(8) Zero or two top diamonds; thus ♦AQ
(9) Right-sided!!! (by luck)

6.
1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
1♥(3) - 1♠(4)
2♣(5) - 2♠(6)
4♠(7)

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) Either 0-4 hcp or strong GF
(3) 4+♥ or really big balanced hand; forcing
(4) 0-4 hcp artificial, not two-suited
(5) 5+♥ and a 4+ side suit, forcing
(6) To play; 6+♠
(7) A reasonable shot even opp xxxxxx xx xxx xx; maybe 3♠-4♠ at mp

Alternatively we have an optional 2NT opening:

2NT(1) - 3♥(2)
4♥(3) - Pass

(1) Strong two-suiter without spades
(2) Prefer hearts to diamonds, but 2-3♥, not enough for game opp. 4-loser hand.
(3) To play.

7.
There are a lot of ways this one could go. Perhaps:

2NT(1) - 3♣(2)
3♥(3) - 3♠(2)
3NT(4) - 4♦(5)
4♥(6) - 4♠(2)
4NT(7) - 7♣

(1) Strong two suiter without spades
(2) Relay; GF
(3) Both minors; 0-3 losers
(4) 1st+2nd round spade control
(5) Ask about clubs (not interested in heart holding, cannot be xxx)
(6) Solid clubs
(7) Solid diamonds

8.
1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
1♠(3) - 2♣(4)
6♥(5) - Pass

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) 0-4 hcp or strong GF
(3) 4+♠, maybe longer side suit
(4) 0-4 hcp and less than 3 spades, no 5-card red suit (need not be many clubs)
(5) Practical bid

9.
1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
2♠(3) - 4♣(4)
4♥(5) - 5♦(6)
7♣

(1) Strong, 16+ artificial
(2) 0-4 hcp or strong GF
(3) 5-5 or better minors; forcing one round
(4) 0-4 hcp but a good fitting hand; natural
(5) Cuebid (4♦ would be RKC, not really what we want)
(6) A great hand in context, must be worth showing ♦ cards

Or alternately:

2NT(1) - 3♦(2)
3♠(3) - 4♣(4)
4♠(5) - 5♦(6)
7♣

(1) Strong two-suiter, not including spades
(2) Not enough to GF opposite 4-loser, prefer diams to hearts
(3) Demand a 4-card suit
(4) Four clubs
(5) Demand a cuebid
(6) Confessing to a diamond card

Anyways, just wanted to make the point that Misiry is not the only way to bid these hands. Honestly I suspect you could take virtually any slam hands (except perhaps two balanced hands and 33+ hcp) and find the majority of the field stumbling to the wrong contract.

[inquiry]

awm said:

Anyways, just wanted to make the point that Misiry is not the only way to bid these hands.

Well, of course, my interest in strong two suiters is MisIry, but I haven't inflicted it on this forum in quite some time. Nor was that the purpose of this post. This was more due to the study on opening bids with strong two suiters and the surprising finding that 2C and 1C opening bids turned out better than one of other suits (see other thread). I found that surprising, so I was trying to get agreements where 2♣ is appropriate in standard methods (hence the post in SAYC/2 over 1, rather than non-natural discussion group). But I certainly don't mind that you used precision or a STRONG TWO SUITER without spade opening bid (2NT). For the un-initiated, misiry is similar in some ways to your 2NT opening, however in Misiry you announce a strong two suiter with one known suit and one suit that is surely not your suit. But what I was trying to get was a consensus that these were all appropriate for 2C opening bid, we would then find weaker hands and weaker hands until we can get to a point where about half would say open 2C and half open one of a suit. I actually think most people can bid these hands just fne after 2C. It is the marginal hands where bidding will be more interesting and the discussion of different method for THOSE HANDS might lead to some interesting views (including moscito, relay systems, and yes misIry)..

I also happen to also agree with justins comment that opening 1C with a strong 2 suiter is waving a red flag in front of the opponents. And yet 1C opening bids were more successful, which provides some food for thought.

However, I guess in response to Keylimes comments I will address the two hands he pulled out. What I do here is find hands, and then modify one of them by adding or removing features and to see what effect the change has on the bidding strategy I would use on a hand. Similar to the changes I suggest on hand one.

Imagine you could say to your partner, hey, I have a stong two suiter and one of my suits is _________ and you tell him your suit. And he says either, blah.. i have a horrible hand with a long suit of my own and no fit for your suit or likely suit, or he could say, I don't promise any hcp, but I can tolerate one of your suits. If you were playing MisIry, hand one, one-a, and seven would all follow essentially the same pattern.. for one and one-A the auction would be 3D-3H-4H-7C, and responder could claim before the lead. Auction 7 would be very similar 3D-3H-5NT-7C-pass, but the 7 Club bidder would also be ready to claim. I will not inflict the rules of misiry on anyone here... since HOMEBASE webpage will soon have a detailed document describing it. On those auctions, opener showed minor two suiter, two losers (one) and one loser (seven) and one loser in hearts which is the king (one) and the ace (seven... despite the void).

[Robert]

Hi everyone

Big Club system with a 'couple' of toys added to the system.

1. 1C=16+, 2D*=8-10, 3D, 3S(Cue, do not want to bypass 3NT 'if' slam is not on the horizon), 4C=cue, 4D=waits, 4H*=RKC(4130), 4S*=none, 4NT*=asks trump queen, 5S*=yes plus King of Spades, 7NT

1b. Without the spade king or heart queen:
1C, 1D=0-7(0-6 vul.), 2S*=5-5 minors, 3C=attempt to sign off, 3H*=numeric shortness(spades), 4C=attempt to sign off, 4D*=Kickback RKC(4130),
4S*=zero, 4NT*=asks trump queen, 5C=no, 5NT*=Last Train, begging for 7C,
7C='if' you can bid 6C by yourself with 5-5 minors, I do have the diamond queen
which should be worth a trick.

2. 1C, 1D, 1S*=4+ spades F1(forcing one round), 1NT*=0-5(other bids are possible with 'some' 5 point hands), 3D*=5+ spades and diamonds, 3H*=waits
(if partner has a 6S and 4D hand, he can rebid 3S over 3H), 4D, 4S, 4NT*=RKC,
5D=zero, 5S

3. 1C, 1D*, 1S*(4+, F1), 1NT*=0-5..., 3H, 3S=waits, 4H, 4S, 4NT*(RKC), 5D*=no,
5H*=trump queen ask?, 5S=no

4. 1C, 2D*=@8-10 bal., 2S, 2NT, 3D, 3H*(cue, why bypass 3NT 'if' slam is not available?), 4C*cue, 4D=waits, 4H*=Kickback RKC, 5D*=zero, 5H*=trump queen ask, 5NT*=yes, and heart king also, 7D

5. 1C-1S*=5+ Hs(GF=game force), 2C*=spades(Meckwell style), 2D(bidding 'around the clock' to show shortness later), 3C, 4S, 4NT*(RKC), 5C*=one, 7S 'played' by NORTH***
Sometimes the system 'works!'

6. 1C-1D-2H*=hearts 'strong' two or 25+ bal., 2S*=forced, 3C*= 5+Hs and clubs
3D=2nd neg., 4H

7. 1C, 1S*=5+H GF, 2NT*=minors, 3C, 3S=cue, 4H=cue, 4S*=RKC, 6C*=one plus a void, 7C

8. 1C, 1D*=0-7(0-6 vul.), 1S*=4+ F1, 1NT*=0-5..., 3H, 3S*=waits, 6S

I am somewhat surprised that you feel that the field bids big hands badly. They bid most hands in a non optimum style.

Regards,
Robert

[inquiry]

Not hearing any objections to the position that all the hands in the first post in this thread will be opened 2C, we will move on with weakening the holding. First to 21 hcp.

On the BBO in tourmanents and team games, during the month of October, there were 24 hands where DEALER had a two suiter with 22 hcp, 50 deals where he had 21 hcp, and 60 deals where he had 20 hcp.

The distributions ranged from pedestrian 5521 (by far the most common) up to 8500.

Within these hcp ranges, there were the frequencies of the hand patterns


HCP->  20   21   22
5521   36   34   17
5530   07   07   01
6511   06   06   02
6520   07   06   03
7510   03   01   01
8500   01   00   00


The most frequent bid (66%) with 22 hcp was 2♣, so I am going to arbitarily assume that is the standard bid with such hands. With 20 and 21 hcp, 2C was opened on 43 and 39 percent of the hands. so I think we are at the point were there are options. So we can begin probing the edges at at no more than 21 hcp

[mikeh]

Playing a fairly basic 2/1 with 2♥ immediate second negative:

1. 2♣    2♦ (positive, waiting)
     3♦    4♦
    4N    5♦ (4N 1430 keycard in a non-cue auction)
    5♥    5N ♦Q plus major suit K
    7♣   P choice of grands


2. 2♣    2♥ immediate second neg.
    2♠    4♠ 4♠ weaker than 3♠


3. 2♣    2♦
    2♠    4♠ weaker than 3♠
    4N    5♦
    5♥   5♠ not realistic for me to stop in game


4. 2♣    2♦
    2♠    3♣
    3♦    4♦
    4N    5♦
    5♥    5N ♦Q and major K
    7♦



5. 2♣   2♦
   2♠    3♠ some slam interest
    4♣    4♦
   4♥    5♣
    5♦   6♠
   7♠


6. 1♥    2♠ weak jump
    4♠




7. 2♣    2N a major positive
    3♦    3♥ 3♦: no real interest in your major
    4♣    5♣
   7♣



8. 2♣    [3♦]    double (immediate second negative)
    6♠

[inquiry]

Mikeh, you choose to open 2♣ on all but number six. What feature(s) of the 22 count number six made you choose 1♥ over 2♣?

[hrothgar]

I can produce relay style MOSCITO auctions that are going to get to good contracts for all of these hands.

I'm not going to bother, because its not a realistic exercise. Its ridiculous to think that the strong club opener has a 6-5 pattern and that the opponents aren't going to crash our auction at some point in time.

In much the same fashion, I'd expect significant competitive bidding whatever opening scheme you might choose.

[bid_em_up]

I encountered an unusual two suited hand the other nite.....unfortunately, the opps held it.

VOID VOID AKQ10x AQJ9xxxx

[mikeh]

inquiry, on Nov 9 2006, 12:15 PM, said:

Mikeh, you choose to open 2♣ on all but number six. What feature(s) of the 22 count number six made you choose 1♥ over 2♣?

Ax AKQJx J AQJxx (if memory serves)

I don't pay any attention to the stiff ♦J in terms of hcp when evaluating this hand, so it is really a great 21 not a 22... altho since I am not a huge devotee of point count valuation that distinction is of little importance.

If partner has values, either opening will probably be okay, but I don't like this hand as absolutely forcing to game, and in my preferred methods, a 2♣ opening is forcing to 2N, 3♠ or 4 of a minor or ♥s. This is a corollary to playing 2♥ immediate second negative: in that style, you have to make 3♥ over 2♥ forcing, to cater to the truly huge two suiters: Ax AKQJx A AKQxx for example.

Opposite Jxxx xx xxxx xxxx, I am probably ending up in 4♥ and this rates to play poorly.

In addition, as per the thread that prompted this thread, when holding 2-suiters of borderline strength, I feel it wise to at least consider the possibility of interference. I will, with this hand, feel better if I can get both my suits in or get an immediate, voluntary, ♥ raise rather than face the prospect of bidding my ♥ suit for the 1st time at the 4 level and never getting to bid ♣ at all.

Of course, it helps that my partners and I tend to respond on minimal values (not 0-2 hcp as was suggested in an earlier thread by some).

Sometimes the line between the 1-level opening and 2♣ is very subtle: to the point that there will be hands on which I suspect my answer would vary according to my state of mind and degree of optimism...but this one is pretty clearly in the 1♥ realm for me.

[inquiry]

Ok, lets start with 20 hcp.. this is probably the strongest 20 hcp hand I found played on BBO during the month of october. This was played in 56 table ACBL game.

Scoring: Total Points

---

The question is, is this hand worthy of a 2♣ opening bid? The data from BBO plyaers is yes. It was opened 2♣ 41 out of 58 times.. here is a table of opening bids..

1♣ - one (alerted as forcing)
1♠ - 12 times
2♣ - 43 times
4♠ - once
6♠ - once

Few had touble with this hand, final contract was
6♠ 33 times - (doubled 3 times)
6♦ once - (auction 2C-2D-2S-3C-6D, and responder choose pass)
5♠ 3 times (once doubled)
5♦ - once
4NT - once
4♠ - 16 times (once doubled)
1♠ - three times.

I would think that everyone should have a fairly easy ride to 6♠, so there are two questions here. Is this hand strong enough to open 2♣ (and if the heart king was a small heart would it still be strong enough?), and what traps exist that might derail a seamless auction to 6♠.

That was perhaps the strongest of the hands with 20 hcp, this is one of the weakest of the hands, this was played in a 16 table tournament (not the main room) ...

Scoring: Total Points

---

Here 2♣ was opened only 3 times, with most peferring 1♦ (9 times) over 1♣ (4 times).

We can readily see that this "20 point" hand is a lot worse than the 20 point hand at the top of this thead (and both of these hands are worse than the 16 point hand bid_em_up posted above). These I think are more GRAPHICAL examples of what Mikeh was talknig about when he disregarded the singleton Jack in his reply about why he choose 1♥ over 2♣ on the earlier hand.

So the field is treating these "20 point" two suiters quite differently, opening 2C of the first and 1 of a minor on the second. How did opening they do on this hand pair?

5♦ was bid twice (once doubled),
5♣ was bid three times
4♥ once
4♣ once
3NT - twice
3♦ - twice
3♣ - five times

I think we can all agree that the first hand is much, much stronger than the second, and as mike pointed out, hcp is not the simple solution to whether or not to open 2♣....

How about an intermediate hand with 20 hcp?

Scoring: Total Points

---

This one was played in a 28 table event,
2♣ was opened 8 times (weel twice was gameforce 2♦ by frenchmen
1♠ was opened 17 times
1♣ was opened 3 times (none alerted as forcing and indeed responder passed)

Final contract were
5♠X = onsce (opened 1♠)
4♠ = 15 times (twice doubled), included 5/8 hands that opened 2♣/2♦
4♣ = once (opened 2♣)
3♠ = 5 times (once doubled, that made easily)
2♠ = twice
2♦ = once (someone passed the game force 2♦ opening bid/misunderstanding
1♠ = once
This hand also defended 3♥ twice and 3♦ once.

Would anyone on this forum open this third hand 2♣? I would NOT. However, looking at the two hands, at imps, would you want to be in 2♠ or 4♠?

[awm]

One has to distinguish between majors and minors, and to a lesser degree even between hearts and spades.

In general, opening 2♣:

(1) Avoids missing game on a well-fitting but very weak hand from partner.
(2) Can sometimes prevent opponents from competing because the auction is higher.
(3) Can sometimes make it difficult to get both suits in.
(4) Can get you overboard into game when partner has a non-fitting hand with a card or two.

If the hand in question includes both minors, then issue (3) becomes a very serious problem. Also, since game in a minor is at the five-level you need more to make it, causing (4) to become significant. And finally, your best game may well be 3NT and this will be almost impossible to diagnose (basically because of (3)).

If the hand includes spades and hearts, then problem (3) is greatly lessened (you can rebid 2♠ and then bid hearts later). (1) becomes much more of a problem and (4) less likely, because you need less for game.

With hearts and a minor, (2) becomes primary because you really don't want opponents bidding spades (usually).

Anyways my (and I think many players') evaluation would be:

(1) With both minors, normally open 1m if it's at all close.
(2) With both majors, normally open 2♣ if at all close, to avoid missing the heart game.
(3) With a major and a minor it's somewhere in between the extremes. I tend to prefer the 2♣ opening with hearts in order to shut out 1♠; however playing a strong club I am exactly the opposite (prefer to open 1♣ with spades since I can outbid the opponents, and open something else with hearts so I can potentially show both suits after the expected spade bids).

[HeartA]

1. 2♣ - 2♦
   3♦ - 4♦
   4NT - 5♣
   5♥ - 5NT
   7♣

2. 2♣ - 2♥ (2nd negative)
   2♠ - 4♠

3. same as 2.

4. 2♣ - 2♦
   2♠ - 2NT
   3♦ - 4♦
   4NT - 5♣
   5♥ - 5NT
   7♣

5. 2♣ - 2♦
   2♠ - 4♣ (splinter)
   4♥ - 5♦
   7♠

6. 2♣ - 2♥
   3♥ - 3♠
   4♣ - 4♥
   4♠

7. This is tough

8. 2♣ - 2♥
   2♠ - 2NT
   6♥ - 6♠.

[mike777]

It seems any two suited hand with a major and 4 quick tricks and a heavy 9 playing trick hand needs to be open with 2clubs?

From here you can decide how much lighter you want to go.....a bit perhaps

[inquiry]

mike777, on Nov 9 2006, 03:23 PM, said:

It seems any two suited hand with a major and 4 quick tricks and a heavy 9 playing trick hand needs to be open with 2clubs?

From here you can decide how much lighter you want to go.....a bit perhaps

I could accept the theory that with major two suiter, you might want to open 2♣ more often, so this suggest the possibility to check major two suiters and see who would open 2♣ versus something else (I wouldn't open any of them 2♣ or one of a suit, but that is not the point).

[mike777]

I do not mean both majors with my comment. I did mean a 5+ card major and any second suit.

Call this a clear 1Heart opener:

x....AKJ87....Tx.....AKJ96


Call this a clear 2club opener:

x...AKQJx....TX....AKJTx

[mikeh]

mike777, on Nov 9 2006, 06:11 PM, said:

I do not mean both majors with my comment. I did mean a 5+ card major and any second suit.

Call this a clear 1Heart opener:

x....AKJ87....Tx.....AKJ96


Call this a clear 2club opener:

x...AKQJx....TX....AKJTx

I very much doubt that many experts would consider a 2♣ opening on that type of hand