[Miron]

Scoring: IMP

---

pass - 1♣ - pass - 1♥
pass - 1♠ - pass - 2♦
pass - 3♣ - pass - ?

What now?
1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ is for sure in our system.
2♦ show interest (in order of priority):

• 3♥
  
• 6-5
  
• diamond stopper

So partner has 5(6)-4 without 3♥ (edited: and without ♦ stopper).

No idea how to bid slam...

[david_c]

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

[Miron]

david_c, on Oct 24 2006, 01:01 PM, said:

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

Say 4NT is natural.
The answer of 5♦ (as one).
What now...

[david_c]

Miron, on Oct 24 2006, 01:09 PM, said:

david_c, on Oct 24 2006, 01:01 PM, said:

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

Say 4NT is natural.
The answer of 5♦ (as one).
What now...

Dammit, that always happens when I bid a natural 4NT.

6NT.

[Miron]

david_c, on Oct 24 2006, 01:35 PM, said:

Miron, on Oct 24 2006, 01:09 PM, said:

david_c, on Oct 24 2006, 01:01 PM, said:

The meaning of 4NT here might be of interest. If it is natural (which it should be IMO) then that seems to solve your problem.

Say 4NT is natural.
The answer of 5♦ (as one).
What now...

Dammit, that always happens when I bid a natural 4NT.

6NT.

Well the 5♦ answer is almost for granted (no more than one ace possible, and less is not probable).

[david_c]

Miron, on Oct 24 2006, 01:45 PM, said:

Well the 5♦ answer is almost for granted (no more than one ace possible, and less is not probable).

Sorry, let's start again from the beginning.

What is the meaning of 4NT?

I said I think it should be natural. That means partner can pass with a minimum, or bid a slam with a better hand. 4NT shows a hand which is too strong for 3NT but not good enough to insist on slam. I think that's what you've got.

If you want to agree to show the number of aces in response when you have a maximum then that's fine, but personally I think that's just confusing (why isn't 5♣ natural?) and East should simply bid 6NT.

[pclayton]

An enlightened partnership will play 4N as natural and quantitative.

My guess is that responder will try 6♣ or 6N.

[FrancesHinden]

I want to go back a round of bidding.

What would you rebid after 1C - 1H with
i) A 4234 distribution? (in that order)
ii) A 4324 distribution?
iii) A 4315 distribution?

If the answer to all of these is 1S, then david_c's suggested auction is fine:

1C - 1H
1S - 2D
3C - 4NT

now as opener, I would bid 5H over 4NT as I have pretty much the best heart holding I could have as well as a good hand, and West will raise.

6H looks to be the second best slam after 6NT by East which is tougher to get to. I can construct an auction in my methods where I rebid 1NT on a balanced hand and raise hearts on a 4315:

1C - 1H
1S - 2D
2H - 3D
3NT - 4NT
6NT

2D = FSF
2H = doubleton support, no diamond stop, as 3-card support would either have raised or rebid 1NT
3D = re-4th suit, where are we going
3NT = I've got some sort of diamond stop
4NT = natural

[Miron]

david_c, on Oct 24 2006, 01:58 PM, said:

Miron, on Oct 24 2006, 01:45 PM, said:

Well the 5♦ answer is almost for granted (no more than one ace possible, and less is not probable).

Sorry, let's start again from the beginning.

What is the meaning of 4NT?

I said I think it should be natural. That means partner can pass with a minimum, or bid a slam with a better hand. 4NT shows a hand which is too strong for 3NT but not good enough to insist on slam. I think that's what you've got.

If you want to agree to show the number of aces in response when you have a maximum then that's fine, but personally I think that's just confusing (why isn't 5♣ natural?) and East should simply bid 6NT.

Sorry, I play BW so often I take it sometimes as natural

And the response... I would say 5NT as "I'm not sure" 14 points is not a maximum. But I have nice points.

Quote

What would you rebid after 1C - 1H with
i) A 4234 distribution? (in that order)
ii) A 4324 distribution?
iii) A 4315 distribution?

We open weak 1NT and we rebid 1NT (as 15-17) with any balanced distribution (even 4 cards in partner suit).
For 12-14: i,ii openned 1NT; iii: 1♠
For 15-17: i,ii 1NT; iii: 1♠

[HeartA]

Well, my first question is, why "3C"? I would bid 3N (or 2N), showing half stopper in D and semi-balance hand. The bidding would go like this:

1C - 1H
1S - 2D
3N - 4N
6N/P

[bid_em_up]

HeartA, on Oct 24 2006, 12:27 PM, said:

Well, my first question is, why "3C"? I would bid 3N (or 2N), showing half stopper in D and semi-balance hand. The bidding would go like this:

1C - 1H
1S - 2D
3N - 4N
6N/P

3C appears to be the only valid bid given the scenario outlined. 2♦ appears to be 4SF. Opener does not have 3 hearts, does not have 6 clubs 5 spades, and does not have a full diamond stop....that leaves 3C as the only remaining bid.

(If 2♦ was natural, then 2N/3N would be more appropriate.)

[bid_em_up]

pclayton, on Oct 24 2006, 08:26 AM, said:

An enlightened partnership will play 4N as natural and quantitative.

My guess is that responder will try 6♣ or 6N.

Could you elaborate on this, Phil? I think you are implying more than is detailed.

(ie, is the "enlightened partnership" also playing Kickback? Redwood? whatever...)

There has to be something else involved here, otherwise, 4N is RKC (or just blackwood) for clubs. The only way it is not, is if you have some other ace asking methods available to you.

[FrancesHinden]

bid_em_up, on Oct 24 2006, 07:18 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 24 2006, 08:26 AM, said:

An enlightened partnership will play 4N as natural and quantitative.

My guess is that responder will try 6♣ or 6N.

Could you elaborate on this, Phil? I think you are implying more than is detailed.

(ie, is the "enlightened partnership" also playing Kickback? Redwood? whatever...)

There has to be something else involved here, otherwise, 4N is RKC (or just blackwood) for clubs. The only way it is not, is if you have some other ace asking methods available to you.

The 'enlightened partnership' plays that 4NT is not BW unless a suit has been agreed. In this particular auction, no suit has been agreed - and, in addition, responder can agree clubs easily by raising 3C to 4C.

[awm]

It's a good general rule that when there is no suit agreement, 4NT is natural. At the very least one should agree that if there is a forcing call which would agree partner's last-bid suit below the level of 4NT, then a direct 4NT is natural. In the given auction, 4♣ clearly agrees clubs and is forcing (we're in a game force after all). So 4NT should be natural. To bid keycard, start with 4♣ and then bid 4NT. This doesn't require playing redwood or kickback or any such nonsense.

[FrancesHinden]

Miron, on Oct 24 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

Quote

What would you rebid after 1C - 1H with
i) A 4234 distribution? (in that order)
ii) A 4324 distribution?
iii) A 4315 distribution?

We open weak 1NT and we rebid 1NT (as 15-17) with any balanced distribution (even 4 cards in partner suit).
For 12-14: i,ii openned 1NT; iii: 1♠
For 15-17: i,ii 1NT; iii: 1♠

The reason I asked is that you might like to have a think about what to bid over 2D FSF.

You have already shown 5 clubs and 4 spades by rebidding 1S.
If, in common with many US players, you play that 2D is game forcing, you might find it more efficient to bid 2H on a 4225 with Hx support (and reserve 3H for a 4315, which is rarer). After your 1S bid, partner already knew you had 5 clubs and 4 spades, so bidding 3C over 2D didn't tell him anything new. Being able to show Hx in hearts is new - you could have a heart void - and indeed helpful on this hand.

[HeartA]

bid_em_up, on Oct 24 2006, 01:14 PM, said:

3C appears to be the only valid bid given the scenario outlined. 2♦ appears to be 4SF. Opener does not have 3 hearts, does not have 6 clubs 5 spades, and does not have a full diamond stop....that leaves 3C as the only remaining bid.

(If 2♦ was natural, then 2N/3N would be more appropriate.)

I don't agree with "3C ... the only valid bid". 3C better show a hand with 6+ C and suit oriented hand (2S would show 6-5, presumably). As Frances pointed out, 1C-1S already shows 5-4 (not always though, could be 4-2-3-4), 2N/3N is more descriptive than 3C, especially given the quacks in red suits.

[bid_em_up]

awm, on Oct 24 2006, 01:24 PM, said:

It's a good general rule that when there is no suit agreement, 4NT is natural. At the very least one should agree that if there is a forcing call which would agree partner's last-bid suit below the level of 4NT, then a direct 4NT is natural. In the given auction, 4♣ clearly agrees clubs and is forcing (we're in a game force after all). So 4NT should be natural. To bid keycard, start with 4♣ and then bid 4NT. This doesn't require playing redwood or kickback or any such nonsense.

FrancesHinden, on Oct 24 2006, 01:23 PM, said:

The 'enlightened partnership'  plays that 4NT is not BW unless a suit has been agreed.  In this particular auction, no suit has been agreed - and, in addition, responder can agree clubs easily by raising 3C to 4C.

Sorry I asked.

[bid_em_up]

HeartA, on Oct 24 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Oct 24 2006, 01:14 PM, said:

3C  appears to be the only valid bid given the scenario outlined. 2♦ appears to be 4SF.  Opener does not have 3 hearts, does not have 6 clubs 5 spades, and does not have a full diamond stop....that leaves 3C as the only remaining bid.

(If 2♦ was natural, then 2N/3N would be more appropriate.)

I don't agree with "3C ... the only valid bid". 3C better show a hand with 6+ C and suit oriented hand (2S would show 6-5, presumably). As Frances pointed out, 1C-1S already shows 5-4 (not always though, could be 4-2-3-4), 2N/3N is more descriptive than 3C, especially given the quacks in red suits.

The problem is 2N/3N GUARANTEES a FULL stop in their methods.

But do as you wish, and go down in 3N when neither of you have a diamond stop.

Btw, what would you bid on 4-2-2-5 with just XX in diamonds?

(It cant be 4-2-3-4, as they are playing a weak NT and would have opened 1N on this holding or rebid 1N (15-17) over 1H, if I read his answers correctly).

[HeartA]

bid_em_up, on Oct 24 2006, 01:56 PM, said:

The problem is 2N/3N GUARANTEES a FULL stop in their methods.

But do as you wish, and go down in 3N when neither of you have a diamond stop.

Btw, what would you bid on 4-2-2-5 with just XX in diamonds?

With two small Ds, I could choose 3C or 3H, depending on how my honors are distributed. Besides, from time to time, we bid 1N-3N or 1N-2x-2y-3N without stopper in a suit, and I am OK with it (and I believe you are OK, too). There is no prefect bid for a lot of hands, that is why we have the discussion here. It's about preference, not right or wrong.

[Miron]

OK,
1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ is only forsing (9+)
3♥ reply shows 3♥ and reserve (GF against 9)
2♥ just 3♥ and isn't forsing (against weak 9)
2NT and 3NT shows full diamond stopper (3NT with some reserve)
3♣ is the only possible answer after 2♦ (without lie).

After 3♣:
4♦ is kickback and 4NT therefore could be natural. But we never spoke about it (general principle is to have both RKCB and BW if possible, but it was ment for 4 level bidding, not jump to 4NT).
For this case is natural quite good, but I'm not sure if it is good principle (but probably yes).

So the right bid after 3♣ was 4NT (as natural).

Just one curious question, what if you think that 4NT will be taken as BW (at the table I hadn't thought about 4NT even a second - but if I had I would probably think also about this one). Is there any possibility without natural 4NT?