[bid_em_up]

HeartA, on Oct 24 2006, 02:07 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Oct 24 2006, 01:56 PM, said:

The problem is 2N/3N  GUARANTEES a FULL stop in their methods.

But do as you wish, and go down in 3N when neither of you have a diamond stop.

Btw, what would you bid on 4-2-2-5 with just XX in diamonds?

With two small Ds, I could choose 3C or 3H, depending on how my honors are distributed. Besides, from time to time, we bid 1N-3N or 1N-2x-2y-3N without stopper in a suit, and I am OK with it (and I believe you are OK, too). There is no prefect bid for a lot of hands, that is why we have the discussion here. It's about preference, not right or wrong.

Ummm, I am ok with bidding 1N-3N without a stop or 1N-2x-2y-3N without a stop in a side suit. We agree on that.

I am not ok with making a bid that promises that I have a stop, when I dont actually have one. There is a difference. If I have to choose between the lie about having a 6th club or the lie about having a stop, I believe it better to lie about the (non-existent) 6th club.

If you dont, you will likely play in 3N with no stop in the suit that is almost certain to be led, in the other auctions given, they at least have to make the right lead. You also may find yourself in a 6C/7C contract that has no play, because your diamond control has been implied by the NT bid.

However, as I said, do as you wish.

(but you won't get me to agree with it)

[mike777]

Can I start with a 14-16 NT please

[HeartA]

Miron, on Oct 24 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

2NT and 3NT shows full diamond stopper (3NT with some reserve)
3♣ is the only possible answer after 2♦ (without lie).

After 3♣:
4♦ is kickback and 4NT therefore could be natural. But we never spoke about it (general principle is to have both RKCB and BW if possible, but it was ment for 4 level bidding, not jump to 4NT).
For this case is natural quite good, but I'm not sure if it is good principle (but probably yes).

So the right bid after 3♣ was 4NT (as natural).

Just one curious question, what if you think that 4NT will be taken as BW (at the table I hadn't thought about 4NT even a second - but if I had I would probably think also about this one). Is there any possibility without natural 4NT?

If 2N/3N has to show full stopper(s) in you agreement, then 3C is fine. 4NT should be natural without suit agreed.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I play a version of the XYZ convention(modified of course)

1C-1H-1S-2D*(game forcing)-2H(without a diamond stop you can bid 2Hs with honor doubleton or three trumps in a minimum balanced hand, I would bid 3Hs here with 4=3=1=5 since I feel that it should normally be worth a jump on the shape alone)

I also play Kickback so 4NT would indeed be natural for my methods.
Since a game force would be created by the 2D bid, either partner could stall with a 2NT(which should include a diamond stopper

I am still slightly puzzled. Does the slam still look good 'if' the club spots are not quite so good(replace the ten or even the 8/9 spot) or replace the heart 10 with a card of 2-9 rank.

The slam seems much less likely to make 'if' some of these spot cards are missing. I realize that I bid more with better spots, however, I normally do not count on partner to hold Q10 when he shows an honor doubleton.

1C-1H-1S-2D*-2H-2NT(you created a GF with 2D so you can let partner bid out his hand)-3NT-4NT(natural)-5NT(pick a slam)-6NT

Since opener does hold all of the good spots, I would bid the slam. Without such an outstanding spotcard collection, I suspect that a pass of 4NT would be my bid. That 10 of hearts really impressed me and the A1098x of clubs would also combine very well with any honor held by partner.

The club suit also seems to have a quite attractive spot card holding. Would opener really bid differently in your methods holding say A108xx(A98xx?) in Clubs or Q9 in hearts?

You hold near slam HCP values with no 8 card fit and the slam is decent with all of the spot cards present, if either the heart ten or club 10(9 and even the 8 spot?) is missing?

I would not mind missing this slam. Opener has full values and really good spot cards. Whether I would bid 4NT holding 18HCP without any good suits or spot cards is somewhat in doubt. I play a 15-17 1NT and would expect opener to accept with 13-14 HCP.

Regards,
Robert

[HeartA]

The spot cards are important. Without the spot cards in clubs, we wouldn't be able to afford C lead if HK is offside. Without the spot cards in clubs, we either don't need clubs if opening lead is not club, or we can develop enough tricks without the finesse in hearts if opening lead is club.