[paulhar]

Assume you're playing fourth suit forcing to game (possible getout at 4 of a minor if scrambling determines game is unfeasable)

#1. What does 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-3H show?

#2. What does 1D-1S-2C-3H show?

#3. You clearly can't have answered all three of the following:
5 spades, 5 hearts, forcing (like AJ10xx, AKJxx, x, xx)
5 spades, 5 hearts, invitational (like AJ10xx, KQxxx, x, xx)
No clear action, do something intelligent (like AQxxx, xxx, Kx, Axx)

If you hold the hand that you couldn't bid with either #1 or #2, how do you bid it?

Thank you!

[Gerben42]

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#1. What does 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-3H show?

Asking for a half stopper in ♥, or just "do something intelligent".

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#2. What does 1D-1S-2C-3H show?

GF 5 - 5 majors

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#3. You clearly can't have answered all three of the following:
5 spades, 5 hearts, forcing (like AJ10xx, AKJxx, x, xx)
5 spades, 5 hearts, invitational (like AJ10xx, KQxxx, x, xx)
No clear action, do something intelligent (like AQxxx, xxx, Kx, Axx)

The invitational hand type is a problem. Forget about it, either pass or force to game.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I play 4th suit forcing only as inv.+,
but this does not really matter here.

#1 3H asks about a half stopper
#2 3H shows 5-5, game forcing
#3 With your first hand => #2
With your 2nd hand, I have a problem,
I would bid 2NT, ungly but thats it
You cant bid 2H, since this would
force you to game (which ever way you play)
on min. values with misfitting hands
With your 3rd hand => #3, hopefully I have
the 10 of hearts...
Otherwise, I have again a problem ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

I don't play FSF as game forcing either, but it doesn't affect this question.

no.1: No clear action
no.2: 5-5, not quite forcing (i.e. a very solid invitation)

My agreement is that if opener bids NT over the FSF bid, then a rebid of the 4th suit is natural and forcing, otherwise it is 'no clear action'. The theory is that is opener can't bid NT over FSF then you probably won't have a fit in the 4th suit.

If I have a game forcing 5-5 I start with 4SF and rebid the 4th suit over NT. If partner doesn't bid NT, I will look at my hand: I can re-4th suit and then re-4th-suit-again over 3NT if I am certain I want to play in a major or I can give up and just bid 3NT myself.

Your example 5-5 invite is too weak for my 3H bid. I'd want the HJ as well. On a misfit auction I need more to invite.

[whereagles]

paulhar, on Aug 29 2006, 09:24 PM, said:

#1. What does 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-3H show?

#2. What does 1D-1S-2C-3H show?

#3. You clearly can't have answered all three of the following:
5 spades, 5 hearts, forcing (like AJ10xx, AKJxx, x, xx)
5 spades, 5 hearts, invitational (like AJ10xx, KQxxx, x, xx)
No clear action, do something intelligent (like AQxxx, xxx, Kx, Axx)

If you hold the hand that you couldn't bid with either #1 or #2, how do you bid it?

1. As others have noted, logically speaking, at this stage 3♥ cannot be showing anything in particular. Rather, responder is asking opener to say something more about his hand. Kinda like "Hum.. you should have a 6-4. Now, do you have 2 spades and/or heart stop?". What responder actually has is unknown.

2. My guess is that most experienced players would take it as game forcing 55. Other interpretations are possible, but a 55 is the most 'normal' one. But I must say I never saw it clearly written in textbooks.

3. Invitational 55s are one of the most dangerous traps in bridge. The risk of unmatched 2-suiters is immense. That's why there's no bid for them. With AJTxx KQxxx x xx you simply bid 2♠ and hope for the best. If you can't stand the thought of missing out on a game, there's a way to bid it:

1♦ 1♠
2♣ 2NT

now opener, if he accepts the invitation to 3NT, might bid 3M on a 3 card suit and you fish out the 5-3 fit.

[SoTired]

paulhar, on Aug 29 2006, 04:24 PM, said:

Assume you're playing fourth suit forcing to game (possible getout at 4 of a minor if scrambling determines game is unfeasable)

#1. What does 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-3H show?

#2. What does 1D-1S-2C-3H show?

#3. You clearly can't have answered all three of the following:
5 spades, 5 hearts, forcing (like AJ10xx, AKJxx, x, xx)
5 spades, 5 hearts, invitational (like AJ10xx, KQxxx, x, xx)
No clear action, do something intelligent (like AQxxx, xxx, Kx, Axx)

If you hold the hand that you couldn't bid with either #1 or #2, how do you bid it?

Thank you!

#1 - GF, 55 - 3H is not a "I don't know" bid
#2 - 55, invitational - Responder's 2nd bid, non-game, jumps are invitational
#3 - 3S. Likely passing opener's next bid

[Dwingo]

Assuming 4th suit force is Game Force

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#1. What does 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-3H show?

Game Force with 5♠-5♥ or 6♠-5♥

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#2. What does 1D-1S-2C-3H show?

Invitational with 5♠-5♥ or 5♠-4♥

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#3. You clearly can't have answered all three of the following:
1) 5 spades, 5 hearts, forcing (like AJ10xx, AKJxx, x, xx)
2) 5 spades, 5 hearts, invitational (like AJ10xx, KQxxx, x, xx)
3) No clear action, do something intelligent (like AQxxx, xxx, Kx, Axx)

1) 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-3H - GF
2) 1D-1S-2C-3H - Inv
3) 1D-1S-2C-2H-3D-4D - GF, set D as trummp