[whereagles]

This might be just academic because in practice we all bid game, but here it goes:

Scoring: IMP

West or East to deal, according to convenience.

Will you be able to stop in 4m?

---

For the record, our auction was 1NT(west)-3NT, with the obvious 2 down after a top spade lead.

[Free]

In MOSCITO I guess we'll end up in 3NT by east 'hoping for half a ♠ stopper'... Bidding:

1♣ - 1NT
2NT - 3NT

In Fantunes it might be possible if you're looking for controls:

1♣ - 1NT (GF bal)
2♣ - 3♣ (2♣ = 15+bal / 3♣ = 10-12, 5♣332)
3♦? - 4♣
pass!

3♦ cue with ♣ fit, 4♣ denies a ♥ or ♠ control, so 3 losers and opener may pass.
However, I don't think 3♦ will be bid at the table...

[FrancesHinden]

I would also bid 1NT-3NT but at my table West led a low spade from AKxxx with no outside entry.

[FrancesHinden]

I was going to try and pretend that you want to be in game on these two hands because of the various chances of a low spade away from the AK, the spades being blocked, a non-spade lead etc.

I don't think I can here, because they can also lead a heart to the ace and switch, and the spades aren't very likely to be blocked. But give me

Jx
Axx
AK10x
Kxxx

opposite

Qx
xxx
QJxx
AQJx

and it's surely getting close to being with the odds if you bid it fast?

(after all, LHO looking at Axxxx spades and not the ace of hearts might go wrong on a spade to the King and a spade back, and play me for Q10x and an outside loser. He shouldn't do if he gets a count lead back, but people sometimes go wrong.)

[Walddk]

1NT-3NT. If you never go down, you don't bid enough, period. I can't stop in 4mi, but I am willing to learn.

This reminds me of an incident (accident perhaps) in the Danish Premier League 15 years ago. Our opponents (Dorthe and Peter Schaltz) bid to 4NT with xx opposite x in hearts. I led a top heart, and 1 minute later we all wrote -430 or +430 on our scorecards.

You guessed it: I had AKQ, Peter Lund J109xxxx. Oh well, life goes on.

Roland

[Gerben42]

All roads lead to 3NT, in MP you might get a top for reaching 5m instead when playing a weak NT and noticing the lack of ♠ stopper.

[Syl20]

whereagles, on Jun 2 2006, 03:25 AM, said:

This might be just academic because in practice we all bid game, but here it goes:

Scoring: IMP

West or East to deal, according to convenience.

Will you be able to stop in 4m?

---

For the record, our auction was 1NT(west)-3NT, with the obvious 2 down after a top spade lead.

At last one hand where the old-fashionned system my p forced me to play could pay !
I was avoided to open 1NT with a small doubleton. The bidding would therefore be:
1♦ 2♣
2♦ 3♦
3♥ 3♠ asks about half ♠ stopper
4♣ ?
Avoiding 3NT would be easy, but not avoiding 5Min since if you change KQ♥ by the A♥ then 5Min is fine.

Of course, the drawbacks are huge and i don't recommand this old opening style

[Echognome]

1NT - 3NT in most systems I play. We went off? Surely the field did as well.

[MarceldB]

Dealer West

P - 1♣
1♦ - 1♠
1NT - 2♥
2♠ - 2NT
3♦ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
Pass

P= 13+ any shape
1♣= 6-11 part bal. shapes òr 12+ any shape
1♦= 13+ bal. òr ++ else
1♠= 6-11p. bal. ♣ 5332 (then 2 top. in 5 card), 5422 òr 6322
1NT= relay and a positive (in points/shape)
2♥= a max. 10-11p. 5332, thus 2 toph. in ♣, òr 6322 no 2 toph. , or 5422
2♠= relay
2NT= 5332 or 5♣4♦22
3♦= stopper asking ♠+♥
3♥= no ♠ stopper
3♠= ♥ stopper?
4♣= no ♥ stopper and a 5332
Pass: without A♥ -and then no Q♦ by the way if 5332- no game prospects



If East is dealer:

- - 1♠ = 8-12p. bal. ♣ 5332 (then 2 top. in 5 card), 5422 or 6322
1NT= relay - etc. (now a max= 11-12p.)

[akhare]

Edit: Note different HCP eval

In our system (FP):

P ;(14+ points; any shape)
1♠ ;8-10 usually w/ 2+ controls; balanced hand
1N ;relay
2♥ ;either 4-4 in minors or any 5332 w/ ♣
3♦ ;relay break; unsure of final contract opposite minimum hand
3♥ ;showing max hand w/ ♥ stopper and ♦ support
4♦ ;no ♠ stopper

Evaluation system:

We use A=4.5; K=3;Q=1.5;J=0.75;T=0.25. In addition, the 1♣ GF requires 3+ controls.

[mike777]

akhare, on Jun 2 2006, 03:24 PM, said:

In our system (FP):

P                ;(14+ points; any shape)
1♠          ;8-10 usually w/ 2+ controls; balanced hand
1N              ;relay
2♥          ;either 4-4 in minors or any 5332 w/ ♣
3♦          ;relay break; unsure of final contract opposite minimum hand
3♥          ;showing max hand w/ ♥ stopper and ♦ support
4♦          ;no ♠ stopper

I like how in your system you have to ignore it and lie with 1s right at the beginning . You have 11 hcp, a 5 card suit and two ten cards not 8-10 hcp.

[jdonn]

If I was west and I could see east's hand ahead of time, I would STILL want to bid 1NT 3NT. Maybe spades block, maybe the AK is underled, maybe another suit is led, maybe the defense messes up.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Jun 2 2006, 03:59 PM, said:

akhare, on Jun 2 2006, 03:24 PM, said:

In our system (FP):

P                ;(14+ points; any shape)
1♠          ;8-10 usually w/ 2+ controls; balanced hand
1N              ;relay
2♥          ;either 4-4 in minors or any 5332 w/ ♣
3♦          ;relay break; unsure of final contract opposite minimum hand
3♥          ;showing max hand w/ ♥ stopper and ♦ support
4♦          ;no ♠ stopper

I like how in your system you have to ignore it and lie with 1s right at the beginning . You have 11 hcp, a 5 card suit and two ten cards not 8-10 hcp.

Not to mention showing a heart stopper with Txx but not a spade stopper with Qx! Some people are pretty darn good double dummy...

[joshs]

whereagles, on Jun 2 2006, 03:25 AM, said:

This might be just academic because in practice we all bid game, but here it goes:

Scoring: IMP

West or East to deal, according to convenience.

Will you be able to stop in 4m?

---

For the record, our auction was 1NT(west)-3NT, with the obvious 2 down after a top spade lead.

In TOSR before I changed the order of the stopper asks (Dan if you are reading, did we adopt that change, or just me and John):
1C(15+)-2D(5+C)-2H®-2S(0-2 spades)-2N®-3D(2335)-3S(asks for spade stopper, shows a minimum hand)-4C(No spade stopper, 9-12ish)-P

Win 8.

I recently re-ordered the stopper asks so the 3 card suits come before the 2 card suits, so we wouldn't have a spade stopper ask available here.

If you felt you wanted to invite opposite 9-12 you can bid a non-forcing 4D next, but I would just want to get out with this hand.

I guess technically the auction could go:
1C-2D(5+C)-2H®-2S(0-2 spades)-3H(min hand, asks for a spade stopper)-3S(9-12, no stopper)-4C(Not forcing)-P(Some extras, but no spade control....)

Actually this is a quite good auction, since you are not wrongsiding NT by bidding 2N as the relay.

[Free]

jdonn, on Jun 2 2006, 10:19 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 2 2006, 03:59 PM, said:

akhare, on Jun 2 2006, 03:24 PM, said:

In our system (FP):

P                ;(14+ points; any shape)
1♠          ;8-10 usually w/ 2+ controls; balanced hand
1N              ;relay
2♥          ;either 4-4 in minors or any 5332 w/ ♣
3♦          ;relay break; unsure of final contract opposite minimum hand
3♥          ;showing max hand w/ ♥ stopper and ♦ support
4♦          ;no ♠ stopper

I like how in your system you have to ignore it and lie with 1s right at the beginning . You have 11 hcp, a 5 card suit and two ten cards not 8-10 hcp.

Not to mention showing a heart stopper with Txx but not a spade stopper with Qx! Some people are pretty darn good double dummy...

They don't lie about their points, they forgot to mention they use a different kind of counting points. HCP isn't the only way... This hand rates 10.25 in their counting. But I also wonder what this is all about with the ♥ stopper!

[Free]

joshs, on Jun 2 2006, 10:58 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jun 2 2006, 03:25 AM, said:

This might be just academic because in practice we all bid game, but here it goes:

Scoring: IMP

West or East to deal, according to convenience.

Will you be able to stop in 4m?

---

For the record, our auction was 1NT(west)-3NT, with the obvious 2 down after a top spade lead.

In TOSR before I changed the order of the stopper asks (Dan if you are reading, did we adopt that change, or just me and John):
1C(15+)-2D(5+C)-2H®-2S(0-2 spades)-2N®-3D(2335)-3S(asks for spade stopper, shows a minimum hand)-4C(No spade stopper, 9-12ish)-P

Win 8.

I recently re-ordered the stopper asks so the 3 card suits come before the 2 card suits, so we wouldn't have a spade stopper ask available here.

If you felt you wanted to invite opposite 9-12 you can bid a non-forcing 4D next, but I would just want to get out with this hand.

I guess technically the auction could go:
1C-2D(5+C)-2H®-2S(0-2 spades)-3H(min hand, asks for a spade stopper)-3S(9-12, no stopper)-4C(Not forcing)-P(Some extras, but no spade control....)

Actually this is a quite good auction, since you are not wrongsiding NT by bidding 2N as the relay.

I don't think it's realistic to pass 4♣, chances of game are pretty high and you stayed out of the doomed 3NT already. 5m is still a possibility in opener's view, so 4♦ is the least he can still do, and I don't see East passing that. Playing a relaysystem makes it difficult to stay out of 3NT, but it makes it almost impossible to stay out of 5m as well imo.

Bidding problems with open cards are always solved VERY nicely, but at the table I would never see this auction appear! Most would end up in 3NT or 5m, usually going down. There seems to be a huge lack of realism, usually with people playing non-natural methods... Apparently it's just too hard to look at 1 hand at a time, realise what you know about partner's hand from the bidding, and make a decent decision. I don't see anyone mention WHY they pass at 4♣, what risks they take,...

[keylime]

in KLP:

West opens: 1NT-3NT.
East opens: 1D-2D-3C-3H-4D swish.

Hard hand, I expect many to be in 3NT or 5 of a minor down like the rock.

[akhare]

Free, on Jun 3 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

They don't lie about their points, they forgot to mention they use a different kind of counting points.  HCP isn't the only way...  This hand rates 10.25 in their counting.  But I also wonder what this is all about with the ♥ stopper! 

Well, as Free noted, we use a different counting system. That's why I said "usually" (we also require 3 controls for a positive 1♣ GF response) instead of giving the long winded explanation, which would detract from the question at hand.

Whoops, I had the hands mixed up -- guess responder will bid 4♦ or might just sit out 3N on the "don't worry about the unbid suits theory"...

Atul

[akhare]

jdonn, on Jun 2 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

Not to mention showing a heart stopper with Txx but not a spade stopper with Qx! Some people are pretty darn good double dummy...

Whoops, I had the hands mixed up -- guess responder will bid 4♦ or might just sit out 3N on the "don't worry about the unbid suits theory"...

Atul

[luke warm]

i think 1nt : 3nt is normal and i'd expect it to make most of the time