[cherdano]

Scoring: IMP

P-(P)-1♦-(4♣)
X-(P)-4♥-(P)
P-(5♣)-?

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RHO has committed the deadly sin of delaying the raise. But opponents' mistakes don't help unless YOU now capitalize on it.

Very good partner, LHO apparently good, too, RHO obviously not.

Arend

[Walddk]

Pass. It seems wrong to make the decision in front of partner. I pretty much showed my hand already. I expect him/her to do something intelligent.

Roland

[mikeh]

I double.

Pass would be forcing and there are aspects of my hand that I like for offence, should that be partner's choice. But overall I do not think I am quite good enough to invite 5♥. Give me AQxx of ♥ and I'd pass.

+500 is possible and +300 seems probable, so my score expectation from doubling is somewhere inbetween: say +370 or so.

My score expectation from inviting 5♥ is a touch under 400... since sometimes partner simply doubles, leaving me in the same boat and sometimes 5♥ goes down. However, the imp table makes the double slightly more attractive: I will rarely lose big with double while going down in a 5-level contract will be a disaster.

Double will end the auction: in theory partner can pull but in the real world he will rarely have the hand to do so.

I read Roland's post as I was reviewing mine prior to posting. If I were awarding points for calls: double would get 100, pass 90, 5♦ 40 and 5♥ 10, so we are not far apart despite our differing calls.

[mcphee]

Dble does not force partner to pass, it expresses losers. While partner has made a 4 level dble for t/o they are already a passed hand. They may have a 5/5 majors hand which they did not want to open the bidding.

We may make 5, we may go down. I think if I invite partner should expect better than this,

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Dbl, ... and Pass wont be forcing.

Sry, partner is a passed hand, he will
have a max. pass for his neg. X, but
4H did not promise add. strength,
so depending on your opening bid style
in 3rd seat, the partnership may have just
the bal. of power.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hotShot]

Of cause partners always does something intelligent, but without the facts about my hand he is most likely to be wrong.
He knows by now i have 3+♦ and 4♥. Any strong move by me might help him to see 4-5♦, but he will not guess i have 6.
My 3 defensive tricks might reduce, if opps have similar distributions in the black suits. I don't think pass is forcing here.
Partner is a passed hand and even if he is 10-11 hcp maximum, he might have wasted values in he black suits.
So dbl seems the best choice.

[Gerben42]

Double (pass would be forcing)

Why? I am absolutely minimum for my bid and I have quick tricks in defence.

[jdonn]

Pass (forcing). I don't believe that my side's bids have made pass forcing seeing as I could still be light third seat, but I have a rule that when a passed-hand opponent raises his partner's preempt, all our passes are forcing.

This comment obviously wouldn't apply to any who think pass is not forcing, but presuming that you do agree with me that pass is forcing, I consider doubling in front of partner here horrible. That would show a lack of interest in bidding on, but you have a LOT of offense here! Double shows something like a balanced minimum or a hand without offense, not a hand with a ton of extra offense like this one. Partner is quite likely to double anyway so I admit it is unlikely to matter, but you don't want to suggest that he pass if he has extra offense.

[Free]

pass, forcing imo.

[han]

Agree with jdonn, wouldn't we double with something like Qxx Axxx AKJx xx? (or would we pass the double of 4C?) The given hand seems very offensive.

[cherdano]

Gerben42, on Apr 13 2006, 11:49 AM, said:

Double (pass would be forcing)

Why? I am absolutely minimum for my bid and I have quick tricks in defence.

Well, you can say a lot about this hand, but minimum?? In terms of hcp, yes, but in terms of any reasonable hand valuation?

[joshs]

From the poll results, I am completely alone here. I see no reason why this auction has claimed ownership of the hand for us, and consequently I don't think pass is forcing. I expect partner to act 80-90% of the time here, but not 100% of the time. And in any case, who cares, as I pass now whether it was forcing or not.

One opponent passed 4C-x since there was a chance he might get to play 4C-x. When we didn't let him, he bid 5C. I have no idea if they expect to make this, or think they are down 2. Maybe my partner does.

[mikeh]

Those who make a forcing pass simply because this hand is not a minimum are missing the point... imnsho (in my not so humble opinion).

Consider what the pass says: surely it says to partner: if you have a good, in context, playing hand, we can make 11 tricks.

Let's construct some examples:

AJxxx Jxxxx Qx x

Anyone think that this is a good hand for 5♥? If not, why not? Yet on the obvious ♣ lead and ♠ switch, are we happy, with at least one and usually 2 trump losers?

Okay, so maybe a good 5-5-2-1 isn't enough. Let's make it better.

AQxxx Qxxxx Qx x... heck, there are posters here who open this

They lead a high ♣ and switch to a ♠. Do you expect to make 5♥? Am I being unfair?

AQJ109 Kxxx Qxx x

A clear 1♠ opening bid with little play (on the auction) for 5♥.

The point is NOT whether you have a minimum or not: the point is whether, given that partner is a passed hand, you should be asking him to bid 5♥ if he has a good negative double. Remember, you could and would have bid 4♥ with far more powerful hands than you did.

And you need a truly unusual hand to bid 5♥ by yourself, committing to a probable 8 card 11 trick contract. So the range of hands shown by the forcing pass includes some very strong hands and the actual hand, non-minimum tho it is, is not anywhere near as strong as the hands he will be expecting: in particular, the trump suit is very poor for a 5-level adventure: which is why I said that I would pass with xx AQxx AKJxxx x.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 13 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

Let's construct some examples:

AJxxx Jxxxx Qx x

Anyone think that this is a good hand for 5♥? If not, why not? Yet on the obvious ♣ lead and ♠ switch, are we happy, with at least one and usually 2 trump losers?

NO NO NO Terrible hand for 5♥!!! Partner has bad hearts and short diamonds! He doubles! This is not even in the ballpark of a bid! Even opposite your example of a forcing pass at the bottom 5♥ is not likely to make so why would he bid it?

mikeh, on Apr 13 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

Okay, so maybe a good 5-5-2-1 isn't enough. Let's make it better.

AQxxx Qxxxx Qx x... heck, there are posters here who open this

They lead a high ♣ and switch to a ♠. Do you expect to make 5♥? Am I being unfair?

YES! Just because it has more high cards than the last hand doesn't mean it has the slightest bit more offense! He doubles! Short diamonds and lack of heart honors are HUGE warning signs for partner against bidding.

mikeh, on Apr 13 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

AQJ109 Kxxx Qxx x

A clear 1♠ opening bid with little play (on the auction) for 5♥.

Why not AQJT9 KJxx Qxx K? I really don't see the point.

mikeh, on Apr 13 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

The point is NOT whether you have a minimum or not: the point is whether, given that partner is a passed hand, you should be asking him to bid 5♥ if he has a good negative double. Remember, you could and would have bid 4♥ with far more powerful hands than you did.

Not a GOOD negative double. A negative double with a high offense to defense ratio. That's why the opening hand example above is so silly. I notice none of your examples had a club void, or four diamonds. Do you want him passing your double then?

mikeh, on Apr 13 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

And you need a truly unusual hand to bid 5♥ by yourself, committing to a probable 8 card 11 trick contract. So the range of hands shown by the forcing pass includes some very strong hands and the actual hand, non-minimum tho it is, is not anywhere near as strong as the hands he will be expecting: in particular, the trump suit is very poor for a 5-level adventure: which is why I said that I would pass with xx AQxx AKJxxx x.

You are speaking in such extremes (as I tend to do myself). You say this hand is 'not anywhere near as strong as the hands he will be expecting', then give the example of what he should expect as a queen better. That isn't 'anywhere near'?

Lets try some hands on which he would bid 5♥ if we pass, keeping in mind they all have very high offense because otherwise he wouldn't bid it!

Axxxx Kxxxx xxx -
I'll take my chances.

Qxx KQxxx Qxxx x
This hand brings up another point. Are you sure 5♣ is going down? In particular, are you sure of that if partner has the hands on which he would bid 5♥ if you passed? Just give partner this hand and make LHO 2128. Or 2308. Your +370 or so estimate may be fine on hands where partner would double if you pass. I'd expect to average more like +100 on hands where he would have bid if I'd pass, with a decent sprinkling of makes in there.

[whereagles]

I think PASS should be forcing because pard can't double at the 4-level unless it's our deal.

As to the problem, unless I made some logical mistake, I don't think we're guaranteed to have a 44 fit, so, accordingly, I pass (showing willingness to bid 5♥) and leave it to pard to act.