[jdeegan]

Scoring: MP

1♦- ???

---

Playing in a strong field in a side game at the Nationals with a reliable partner using the normal defensive structure for pair games - 2♦ would be Michaels, jump overcalls weak, 2NT for minors.

If you have a case for any bid other than one heart, please elaborate.

[Free]

Dbl, wtp???

[mikeh]

I understand double: there are hands on which one holds just too much to risk an overcall, but (for me) this one is not quite there yet. I bid 1♥.

There is almost no risk of the auction dying there unless partner has a long string of ♠ and insufficient points to bid: precisely the hand I cannot handle if I double, so not a problem. On any other hand, either partner will bid something or the opps will: I am missing 13 ♠, and last I checked, people with ♠ like to bid.

[JohnnyH7]

Amusing. I always said I would NEVER X with a void in spades if I could not control the subsequent auction. However, this hand is so powerful I think that I have to X. Unlike the poster that asked what the problem is, I find Xing with hands like these to be very problematic. I just can't catch up if I don't.

[awm]

There's something to be said for 2NT (round suits) here. If partner preferences hearts you can make a strong slam try. Otherwise you can try 3NT, which has got to show extras and a diamond card (okay partner might assume you are 1525 with a diamond stop, but that's ok). If the auction really goes 1♦-2NT-Pass-3♣-Pass to you, chances are partner has some spade cards and if he doesn't he will know that it's the danger suit.

[hrothgar]

awm, on Apr 11 2006, 11:37 PM, said:

There's something to be said for 2NT (round suits) here. If partner preferences hearts you can make a strong slam try. Otherwise you can try 3NT, which has got to show extras and a diamond card (okay partner might assume you are 1525 with a diamond stop, but that's ok). If the auction really goes 1♦-2NT-Pass-3♣-Pass to you, chances are partner has some spade cards and if he doesn't he will know that it's the danger suit.

If I could bid 2NT for the round suits I would.
Sadly, its defined as minors.

Accordingly, I'm bidding 1♥

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 11 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

I understand double: there are hands on which one holds just too much to risk an overcall, but (for me) this one is not quite there yet. I bid 1♥.

There is almost no risk of the auction dying there unless partner has a long string of ♠ and insufficient points to bid: precisely the hand I cannot handle if I double, so not a problem. On any other hand, either partner will bid something or the opps will: I am missing 13 ♠, and last I checked, people with ♠ like to bid.

What people often overlook is that just because the auction won't die does not mean you will be able to describe your hand later.

So you get your wish, partner bids 1S over your 1H. What do you do now? 3C? Is that even forcing after an overcall, and are you sure partner will agree? And if partner raises and you belonged in 3NT? And even if 3C is forcing does it really do your hand justice? Or do you just bid 3NT and shut out clubs? The opponents then run spades on you while 7C was cold?

I'm not saying 1H isn't without merit, or that double doesn't have its risks. I'm just saying that merely because the auction is likely (but not certain!) to return to you does not approach solving your problems.

[cherdano]

I double because even if partner has the length to make a jump in spades, he is unlikely to have the strength to do so.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 11 2006, 04:00 PM, said:

So you get your wish, partner bids 1S over your 1H. What do you do now? 3C? Is that even forcing after an overcall, and are you sure partner will agree? And if partner raises and you belonged in 3NT? And even if 3C is forcing does it really do your hand justice? Or do you just bid 3NT and shut out clubs? The opponents then run spades on you while 7C was cold?

Actually, hearing partner bid ♠ was not my wish: when I doubled I hoped that partner would raise ♥ (if he raised preemptively, showing length, I'd bid slam: that would be a first ) or that the opps would bid ♠, giving me a chance to show my 3-suiter monster via a 2 or 3♠ cue.

Do I think that 1♥, assuming it does not end the auction, solves my worries? Of course not. Do I think that I will be better positioned, should any player mention ♠, after 1♥ rather than double? Yes, and I doubt that anyone can come up with a plausible argument to the contrary. At worst, I will be in no worse a position and at best I am wonderfully placed, as I am in the given auction: my 3♠ cue almost exactly defines my hand type: I must be 0=5=4=4 for the sequence to make sense and I have 4-level safety (or near-safety) so must have a monster.

OTOH, if I double, firstly partner will never play me for a ♠ void, and secondly, if I double and bid ♥, he will and should play me for a much better suit: he will never put me into ♣ with, say, a weak 5=2=1=5: he will be proud of his doubleton ♥ and ♦ ruffing value. Or, what would you bid if partner doubled 1♦ and you held KJxxxxx xx xxx x? I know I'd want my partners to bid 4♠ with that hand. Now, you doublers...... your choice of horrible results?

So for me, 1♥ with my eyes wide open and fully aware that I may look silly, for neither the first nor the last time: difficult hands lead to strange results.

[jdonn]

"Do I think that 1♥, assuming it does not end the auction, solves my worries? Of course not."

This seems to contradict your earlier post where you made it sound like all would be peaches and cream after 1♥ assuming it wasnt passed out, or more specifically 'There is almost no risk of the auction dying there unless partner has a long string of ♠ and insufficient points to bid: precisely the hand I cannot handle if I double, so not a problem.'

"Do I think that I will be better positioned, should any player mention ♠, after 1♥ rather than double? Yes, and I doubt that anyone can come up with a plausible argument to the contrary."

Actually if the spade bid is low I'll be much more glad to have doubled. It's true that the higher the spade bid then the more I'll wish I'd overcalled instead, but if it goes p 1♠ p back to you after your original choice, you will darn well have an easier time having doubled than having overcalled. Of course you might disagree with that due to...

"if I double and bid ♥, he will and should play me for a much better suit: he will never put me into ♣ with, say, a weak 5=2=1=5"

I'm not sure where that comes from. AKJ9x seems plenty good enough to me, and I can't conceive of why partner wouldn't introduce his second suit on a 5-5 after I've doubled. What does he think I'll expect, a 6-6 hand?

"Or, what would you bid if partner doubled 1♦ and you held KJxxxxx xx xxx x? I know I'd want my partners to bid 4♠ with that hand. Now, you doublers...... your choice of horrible results?"

That hand is about the ten of spades from 4♠ being a decent contract. In fact even on that hand your odds of making aren't so terrible! Your chances are certainly worse opposite many obvious doubles like AQx xx Axxx KQxx. Does that mean we shouldn't double on that hand either?

(Anyone help! How do I space out the automatic quote's from a person's post into several places in my reply instead of all at the beginning, so I don't have to use this silly format of quoting? Personal reply to me would be fine so as not to clog this thread with something off topic)

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 11 2006, 06:06 PM, said:

Of course you might disagree with that due to...

"if I double and bid ♥, he will and should play me for a much better suit: he will never put me into ♣ with, say, a weak 5=2=1=5"

I'm not sure where that comes from. AKJ9x seems plenty good enough to me, and I can't conceive of why partner wouldn't introduce his second suit on a 5-5 after I've doubled. What does he think I'll expect, a 6-6 hand?

In the style that advocates strong overcalls (albeit not necessarily this strong ) the double followed by a new suit is generally (I am not claiming 'universally') used to show a suit such as AKJxxx or so: almost always a good 6 carder with what is usually primarily a one-dimensional hand. Furthermore, doubling and bidding ♥ is not the least bit forcing, so if partner has a 1♠ response with a weak hand: say xxxx xx xx Kxxxx he will pass 2♥: 3♣ would not (normally) show 6-6, in case you wondered, but it would show more values.

Another thought: you hold xxx xxxx xx xxxx

LHO opens 1♦, partner doubles and RHO bids 1♠. You are happy to pass, LHO raises to 2♠ and partner bids 3♠.

Are you sure..... really sure... that partner has a void in ♠ and that he does not have AKQxxx? That RHO has real ♠ and not shortness with long ♦ and a weak hand? If you are sure, is it perhaps because you have seen the post? This is mps and the opps are white.

And if partner says double, is that all of a sudden showing a void ♠??? Or if he bids 3♥ is he really showing a 5 card suit???

And btw, my posts are already very long.. I cannot pretend to cover every branch of any possible sequence, so please do not read into my posts more than is there: when I said that the 1♥ overcall was good because it avoided the weak 1♠ bid that might have happened had I doubled, I was NOT saying that 1♥ solved all problems. Only an idiot would claim that either double or 1♥ was perfect... and despite the opinions expressed by some of my partners after seeing the dummies I table for them, I am not generally considered an idiot.

[mcphee]

I could never make a t/o dble with this hand. Some days partners shoot 4S with a 5 bagger and a side 5 card suit. They do not have to hold 6S to bid 4. While it is unlikely I am going to hear 4S I am from the school of I have support when I dble. To dble and venture H over a simple S response just should usually have a longer suit.

Even on the days where partner is 6-4 in the black suits you will never find C if you start with dble.

[luke warm]

i'd bid 2nt showing the 2 lower unbid suits

[Codo]

I would double, beliving, that it pays to stay to the agreed system if there is no clear clue to overrule it. Of course, a spade void is clue, but not strong enough to change the system.

[Gerben42]

Never EVER double with a void in Spades. Except this hand

Double.

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with mikeh (no surprise there) and would bid 1H.

Usually, if you said "you have a 21-count and RHO opens" I would expect to be doubling. But this hand seems to be an exception.

Give me the H10 as well and I'll double.

[MickyB]

1♥ seems totally obvious to me. I really don't expect it to get passed out, and I think I am better placed after bidding 1♥ than doubling. Maybe I am taking this view because I've seen the 4♠ bids that I have made opposite takeout doubles.

[han]

Count me in for 1♥, as much a matter of style as a matter of right and wrong.

I don't mind Adam's suggestion (2NT for the rounded suits) but I don't think that I would ever double.

[whereagles]

Double, followed by 2♥. This should be safe because pard can hardly have enough points to bid higher than 1♠. Besides, if he holds

Qxxxxxx
xx
x
xxx

he himself can realize you probably hold a good-one-suited-hand (GOSH) double.