[Sigi_BC84]

hrothgar, on Mar 13 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

I think that there is a fairly simple way to handle disclosure (at least so far as computers are concerned). Disclosure systems are intended to provide players with information regarding the set of hands consistent with bid XYZ. Why not simply provide a set of hands as the disclosure mechanism. These hands could be drawn from past history using an application like BridgeBrowser. If there were not sufficient hands to provide a statistically significant sample a dealer program could be used to bulk things out.

Very nice idea, but incompatible with "real" bridge. Ideally the computer accepts explanations as they are given in f2f bridge across the table (or typed into an alert window on BBO). To correctly interpret such information, some natural language processing would be needed as well as an expert system that would, for example, know what "capp" means.

To implement your "disclosure by example" scheme, the pair opposing the computer would have to carry around a sufficiently large example database (or have enough records in BridgeBrowser or BBO or whatever you'd be using). This is often not the case. Furthermore you'll be ending up without enough information too often. Take denial cuebids after a relay sequence as an example. The denial cues are very easily formalized in the context of the preceding relays. However, finding a sample for a given denial cue sequence will be hard (since it is rather unlikely that a sufficient number of identical sequences has occured so far).

--Sigi

[inquiry]

EarlPurple, on Mar 13 2006, 11:58 AM, said:

It would also be nice to be able to load BBO hands directly in or even get it to plug into BBO when I'm logged in there so I don't have to type the hands in (when I'm kibbing, of course). Its strongest point is its double-dummy analysis which tells you exactly how many tricks can be made at any stage in the play (including before it).

You can load BBO hands into jack.

Try using either cascade's wonderful linconverter or Richard Pavelik's conversion program to go from lin to pbn and load the pbn files. Or, if you play in Homebase and/or purchase rec software's Bridgebrowser program you can export any hands you like to PBN format for use in JACK.

If I remember correctly, if you use cascade's lin converter, you may have to open the file and delete a non-printing character from the end of the file to get jack to read it. Files coverted with Pavelik's dos utility and those exported from Bridgebrowser work fine.

[Sigi_BC84]

ArcLight, on Mar 13 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

Does the way GIB play on defense work like this?
1. Generate a number of hands (H), constrained by what is known from the bididng and play
2. Solve them Double Dummy and see what solution (S) is most common across all the hands generated.
3. Select that card
repeat this process after each card  13 times.

This is how it basically works on both declaring and defense. AFAIK MG has improved on this idea to make decisions during later stages of play when GIB has collected enough information -- the computer then tries to select the best line of play rather than just solving the problem locally.

The paper can be found here: http://www.jair.org/...insberg01a.html

--Sigi

[pigpenz]

ArcLight, on Mar 13 2006, 12:44 PM, said:

Where is the GIB paper?

Does the way GIB play on defense work like this?
1. Generate a number of hands (H), constrained by what is known from the bididng and play
2. Solve them Double Dummy and see what solution (S) is most common across all the hands generated.
3. Select that card

repeat this process after each card 13 times.



>Perhaps that is why progress on GIB's bidding database is dormant; why shovel grains of sand when the beach is essentially infinite?

I was told a while back that Mr. Ginsburg hasn't worked on GIB for a while. I think its because he is working on a job that pays real money and he doesn't have much time.

Well the commercial version of GIB has some other helpful tools very bridge analysis. And I am not sure as to how this works with the playing GIB...but there is a file in GIB called bridge.exe which allows you input hands at matchpoints or imps include an auction and it will break down which bid it thinks is correct or lead. I think this is probably what happens when you ask gib for help but is more extensive in its search for the correct or % wise answer.

[pdmunro]

Two interesting links re simulation are "How Computers Play Bridge" by two Bridge Baron programmers, and an extended interview with Yves Costel the programmer who wrote WBridge5, the winner of the 2005 Computer Bridge Championship. I downloaded the zip file and then used Google translator to get the gist of his ideas.

[Sigi_BC84]

pigpenz, on Mar 13 2006, 10:39 PM, said:

Well the commercial version of GIB has some other helpful tools very bridge analysis. And I am not sure as to how this works with the playing GIB...but there is a file in GIB called bridge.exe which allows you input hands at matchpoints or imps include an auction and it will break down which bid it thinks is correct or lead. I think this is probably what happens when you ask gib for help but is more extensive in its search for the correct or % wise answer.

The bridge.exe included with BBO is the full version of GIB, with all its abilities but not including a graphic user interface. There is documentation to be found on the net on how to interface with bridge.exe. You can do all sorts of analysis that way (double dummy analysis, suggesting a lead, help solve play problems etc.).

I don't think the bridge.exe that comes with BBO differs in any way from the commercial version (I think there has been a minor update, but that's all).

--Sigi

[andych]

Zia Mahmood, in his book 'Bridge my Way', doesn't believe in computer bridge.
Has he changed his mind yet? Has any other famous players been asked similar questions?

From the link provided in the thread

Quote

"...but a computer cannot play chess and will NEVER be able to play chess. Or at least not the first 2000 year. Why do I have to repeat myself again and again?"
With these words the Dutch international chess grandmaster Hein Donner emphasized his opinion in 1981. By now we have reached a new millennium and every chess player knows Donner was completely wrong. Donner, who died in 1988, didn't have to swallow his words because it took about another ten years before the supremacy of 'that thing' over the human mind was established. By now, almost any chess player prepares and analyses his games with the chess program Fritz or one of Fritz's nephews.

Interesting reading. Wonder if Zia would like to withdraw now?
Thx for the link ....

[mike777]

yes he dropped his million dollar computer challenge years ago.

[ArcLight]

Deep Blue ran on expensive specialized hardware. I wonder how much better the Bridge playing programs would be if they could analyze 10 times as many hands as they currently do.

[CarlRitner]

ArcLight, on Mar 16 2006, 05:40 PM, said:

I wonder how much better the Bridge playing programs would be if they could analyze 10 times as many hands as they currently do.

We almost have the answer to that. When GIB was first introduced with both a single and double dummy solver it was benchmarked with a 500Mhz PC. We're getting in range of an order of magnitude in speed, and a commesurate gain in RAM. (I'm working from memory here - if that number was 300Mhz then we are there now.)

However, I am not sure if GIB is allowed to increase the sample sizes accordingly. There's a switch on the bridge.exe engine that controls the sample size for simulations, and I believe the current setting is 50. I don't think that's variable from the standard GUI, unless the sample cap increases with the "think" time.

Speeding up and/or increasing samples in the double dummy mode will help eliminate the goofiness that can arise because of small skewed samples, and moreso because of simulations terminated early. It won't make the program any "smarter" though, and the flaws with DDA will still be there. It will help the single-dummy analysis to a much higher degree, but I don't hear reports of GIB gaining ground because of CPU performance.

GIB (and the rest of the lot) need the most work in bidding. This is an area of imperfect information that has no equivalent model in any other game I am aware of. While some of the auction meanings are intuititve, many are not, and the the boundaries between bids are artificial and fuzzy. Humans can take a few hundred or so bidding guidelines and figure things out for themselves late in the auction when a new situation is encountered (well, most can). Computer programs rely on default rules (and bids) to cover the holes in the general rules (and the database), and this works for perhaps a plurarity of these situations but certainly not for even the majority of them, much less enough to be considered bidding at an expert level.

Further gains in speed and memory will refine current techniques, but we'll need to replace those techniques if we want to see a step change in proficiency.

Cheers,

Carl
ACBL Library Used Bridge Books

[EarlPurple]

The problem with a lin converter though is that you'd only be able to load the hands in after they were finished.

I want to load them in whilst they are in front of me to do the double dummy analysis.

[inquiry]

earlpurple: I am not sure I understand. First, you said...

Quote

It would also be nice to be able to load BBO hands directly in or even get it to plug into BBO when I'm logged in there so I don't have to type the hands in (when I'm kibbing, of course). Its strongest point is its double-dummy analysis which tells you exactly how many tricks can be made at any stage in the play (including before it).

Here you were talking about loading them into Jack I take it. I showed you three ways to get hands from bbo into jack. Now you say....

Quote

The problem with a lin converter though is that you'd only be able to load the hands in after they were finished.

I want to load them in whilst they are in front of me to do the double dummy analysis.

Here I am totally stumbed why you need to deal with Jack at all. BBO has GIB solver added now (at least in the Beta release) and you can use that while kibitizing in real time. So there is no need to go to JACK right away, just use GIB. If your version still has "Deep Finessee" then upgrade to the beta version.

[inquiry]

I guess I will write a review of BridgeBrowser Online.

Bridgebrowser is dedicated database manager for bridge hands. The author (sfbp on BBO) sells this program in two flavors: Bridgebrowser and Bridgebrowser Online. For those who purchase bridgebrowser, you get the program and buy datasets. There are lots of datasets you can purchase. BridgeBrowser on line is a subscription based service where you get access to all the datasets but only while connected on line. There are three major differences between the two versions. BridgeBrowser with local data is MUCH faster than the online version (and if you have a dial up modem, it is very, very much faster). The online version has a lot more data, and if you play on BBO a lot more current data. The online version will not let you export hand records found to a portable dataset (else you could build the stand-alone product at home I think).

Bridgebrowser offers the following features

• Searchable database
  • Search by player name
    
  • Search by player and partner
    
  • Search by player and opponent(s)
    
  • Search by date
    
  • search by contract
    
  • Search by opening bid
    
  • search by response or overcall
    
  • search by hand pattern (shape)
    
  • Search by hcp
    
  • search by number of controls
    
  • search by opening lead
    
  • seach by imps or matchpoints
    
  • by team game, tournament, or main room (BBO)
    
  • search by suit quality (legnth and/or honors held)
    
  • search by seat position
    
  • Search by vulnerability
    
  • search by range of contracts
    
  • search by overcall. responders bid, advancers bid, openers rebid, etc
    
  • SEARCH BY ANY COMBINATION (INCLUDING MULTIPLE COMBINATIONS) OF the above
  
  
• Export hands
  • Export to plain text without player names
    
  • Export to html without traveller
    
  • export to pbn (just one play)
    
  • export to pbn plus all the duplicates (bulid your own jack tournanment I hear, haven't tried it)
    
  • export just summary of hands
    
  • export an abbreviated format (I don't like this one)
  
  
• Bidding Analysis
  • The program allows you to search many hands from any search critieria, then click on any bid in first two rounds of bidding and examine histograms (listed below)
    • HCP for the bid
      
    • hand shape (4333, 4432, etc) for the bid
      
    • Suit legnth and quality (xxxx, Jxxx, Qxxx, QJxx, Kxxx, KJxx, KQJx, Axxx, AJxx, AQxx. AKxx, AQJx, AKJx, AKQx. AKQJ) for four card suits, etc
      
    • Final contract and which side played it (side making the bid you checked or the other side)
      
    • Number of tricks (decleared or defended -- most useful when the final contract is checked)
      
    • Average Matchpoint and Imp score for each of the first bids 7 bids and final contracts in the bidding tree and the number of hands each found in the search
      
    • Each histogram listed above can be clicked to see the average imps/matchpoint scores (with total hands), and you can combine clicks to sum several bars. For instance, you may want to see how you do if you open 1NT with 14 or 15 hcp, you can find all your hands, then click on 1NT bids (your average imps/matchpoints already shown), and choose plot, then click on the bars for 14 to see how you do for 14 hcp and then, without clearing the results, click on 15 hcp to see the combined averages (clear window first if you want to jsut see how you do with your 15 hcp openings).
      
    • You can also see how you do if you open 1NT with a five card major, by combining searches for hands with five card majors that open 1NT opening bids
      
    • Are your preempts working? Simple look how you do for opening with a preempt under bid analysis.
    
    
  • You can list all matchpoint or all imp or both hands at any common bidding point in a biddign tree or any final contract
  
  
• Playing Results
  • You can review any hand you find (or any of the duplicate plays at the other tables) quickly and easily
    • Review can be in bridgebrowser hand view mode
      
    • Optionally: If you have Fred's Netbridgevu program on your computer you can call it up and re-play the hand in order or double dummy (your choice) (we all have it yes? That is how we play on BBO
    
    
  • Sort found hands by touirnament, date, contract, score, partner, opening lead, and more
    
  • Use the sorted hand to examine the ones you got bad scores on: did you bid poorly, did you play poorly. were you "fixed"
    
  • Compare your play with the various experts who played the same hand (you can quickly examine their bidding/play
  
  
• Quickly see which opponents you do best against and which you do worse agaisnt (find opponents list them and give summary)
  
• Quickly see which partners you do best with and which you stuggle with (find partners does the same)

Bridge Browser online allows you to access essentially all the tournament and team game and main room hands played on BBO in the last couple of years. All in all there are nearly 100 million hands in the hand record. The ability to search for hands is great value: want to teach a class on michaels cue-bid, you can find 1000's if such hands and their real world results in seconds. Want to see how well DONT works, simply look with a few easy search commands. Want some hands for JACK? Export random hands into PBN and text mode (with traveler), play hands in jack, then compared to the players in BBO.

Want to make fancy webpage of your hands? Export to html the hands you are proud of and post on the web (http://www.homebasec.../hands/inquiry/ has links to what the html looks like withouth the embedded hyperlinks (those are created with bridgebrowser).

For the serious student, bridgebrowser has a "wow factor". Imagine a question, and you can find matching hands (I wonder what happens if I open 3rd seat with 7 hcp and KJxx of spades when not vul, at imps --- you can set those parameters and find only such hands (open or not open).

Homebase club offers homebase browser for free. Homebase browser is a limited version of bridgebrowser online. All it can access is hands played on the BBO in any homebase event (free or fee-based). So instead of 100 million hands, you have access to about 15 thousand hands right now (it grows everyday). One advantage of homebase browser is the hands are available in the database the same day they are played. The regular Bridgebrowser online, the data is updated more sporatically, instead of daily, it is updated every 4 to 10 weeks. So the bad news about the free homebase browser is there is very little data there, the good news is it is always extremely current and it is free and it is growing. And since it is free, you can try it out. Any BBF member who wants to give it a try, let me know, and I can get you a username and password to try the free version out.

[pdmunro]

Double Dummy Solver (DDS)   http://www.bridgemat...downloadDD.html

I have been using DDS for some time now, and I find it does all that I want it to do. It loads BBO (.lin) files. It allows me to play the cards in any order. It is very fast. It is free.