[sceptic]

playing 15 - 17 NT openers

with 17 hcp exactly and a 5 card suit when is it worth bidding

1/. 1diamond and a 2NT response

2/. 1 club ditto

3/. 1 heart

4/. 1 spade

and can I have some reasons please

2NT will be 18-19

[kenrexford]

It depends upon what you mean by "15-17."

The way I analyze hands, and my definition of "15-17," means "looks like 15-17" when I adjust the count up or down by looking at body, shape, and controls.

If I held 17 HCP's, with a five-card suit, with 5+ controls, with no glaring honor problems, I'd consider this too strong for 1NT. However, this is mostly because I'd evaluate many 14's up.

If the partnership tendency was to evaluate many 15's (and perhaps some 18's) down but few (or no) 14's up, then 17 with a five-card suit is OK.

The "14+ to 17-" thinking allows 1-of-a-suit to be as low as 11 if 5332. If more conservative on the 1NT opening, then you probably need 1-of-a-suit, with 5332, to show 12-14.

[mikeh]

I look at factors such as:

1) the number of controls I hold.. hands heavy on Queens and Jacks don't get upgraded as aggressively

2) the quality of the 5 card suit: if it is Jxxxx, I won't usually upgrade

3) spot cards... give me a couple of 10's or a 109 in the long suit, and I am likely to upgrade

I don't draw any distinction between the suits: I will value a hand with ♣s the same way as with ♠s and so on.

I am a frequent upgrader of 17 counts (and of 14's to 15 on the same approach) with 5 card suits.

Point counting is only an approximation of hand value, and a strong hand with 5332 is generally stronger than the same hand with 4432 or 4333, so it is fundamentally wrong to ignore that reality.

[cherdano]

As Mike says point counting is never really accurate but adding a point for a reasonably good 5-card suit in balanced hands is a pretty good approximation. Just watch out and don't upgrade when there are other negative factors (lack of aces kings, KQ tight, bad spots everywhere, etc.)

[ArcLight]

Point counting is reasonably accurate for NT contracts as opposed to suit contracts.

[pbleighton]

There is another factor to consider, though some may think it irrelevant. Many people don't like their partners to upgrade or downgrade. If you are playing with a pickup partner, you are better off sticking to the agreed range. With a regular partner, discuss upgrading and downgrading in general, not just NT openers.

Peter

[Fluffy]

Depends on your agreements, I would rather open 1NT with 18, than rebid 2NT with 17, for me.

Open 1♣ with 17: Never

Open 1♦ with 17: Never

Open 1♥ with 17: Always, then rebid best minor at the 2 level (I don't open 1NT with 5cM)

Open 1♠ with 17: Always, then rebid best minor at the 2 level (I don't open 1NT with 5cM)

[Gerben42]

Quote

Depends on your agreements, I would rather open 1NT with 18, than rebid 2NT with 17, for me.

For me the exact opposite. But then, I prefer 14 - 16 to 15 - 17 anyway so I'm sorta used to it.

Quote

Many people don't like their partners to upgrade or downgrade. If you are playing with a pickup partner, you are better off sticking to the agreed range.

Why? I agree you should try to stick to a middle-of-the-road style but you should not stop evaluating your hand.

Any 17 with a good 5-card suit is too good for 1NT for me.

[pbleighton]

Quote

Why? I agree you should try to stick to a middle-of-the-road style but you should not stop evaluating your hand.

To avoid pissing off your partner. As I said, this isn't importnant to everyone.

Peter

[SoTired]

I generally upgrade 5-card minor suits when the suit is headed by 4-7 HCP. Less than 3 HCP and the suit may not run. Over 7 HCP and the excess points or partner's honors may be duplicate.

I open 1M with 17 HCP.