[Walddk]

Scoring: IMP

---

Responder, IMPs, vulnerable.

2♣ - 2♦*
2♠ - 2N**
3♥ - ??

* Waiting
** Negative

What now?

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

Well, you're not playing with Ben as he would have pulled out his toy instead of 2C, so that being said the hand is definitely worth the 5 level in H so what's a fair slam try?

[cherdano]

5♥

[pclayton]

2N as a 2nd negative Roland??? Barf!

5♥ looks right here.

By the way, I heard about a neat treatment Mike Shuster developed - After 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠, invert 2N and 3♠. This right-sides the NT and gives you some extra room after the 'raise'.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4H, playing it safe and trying to go plus.

4H shows what I have, support and 1-2 tricks
for partner, because I can pass 3H.

4H also denies cue bids in clubs and diamonds,
hence it describes the hand fairly well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

Walddk, on Oct 6 2005, 11:23 AM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ 82 ♥ QJ873 ♦ Q973 ♣ 52

Responder, IMPs, vulnerable.

2♣ - 2♦*
2♠ - 2N**
3♥ - ??

* Waiting
** Negative

What now?

Roland

Must admit I have no idea what 2d waiting then 2nt negative was suppose to show.
If I did know what hand I had promised at this point I could know what to bid now.

Here are my assumptions, guesses really.

Assuming I have shown this hand up to this point then I can just bid 4h now...all I have is an extra heart I assume. I also assume 3h was not forcing.

[pigpenz]

4♥, saying what i have no aces and kings and partner has to have a very good two suiter to make a slam try, not kqxxx♠'s

[mikeh]

5♥: virtually perfect: shows a hand that will take 10 tricks opposite a minimum opener

Partner has forced to game. I hate the methods in use here, but that is not the point. I assume that I was kibitizing and South was taken ill just as the 3♥ bid was made, so I am forced to fill in. Good thing I didn't see RHO's hand as well, I suppose

5♥ should show good trump (I have that), and a good, if not ideal ♠ holding (xx is very useful on these auctions: better than x or xxx... imagine opener with AKxxxx) and no minor controls... with same hand and stiff minor, I would splinter.

I am a very strong 2♣ opener, and an even stronger 2♣ opener on two-suited hands, so opposite me, there is less danger of going set in 5♥ by bidding it than there is of missing 6♥ by bidding 4. If you are a 'light' 2♣ opener, then 4♥ may be enough.

[Gerben42]

I bid 4♥ next. Yes I know the hand, can't win them all. Bidding after 2♣ strong isn't very accurate, I'm afriad.

[awm]

It seems pretty reasonable to me to bid 3♥ at second turn. Five card heart suit, game values, no spade fit, not a good enough suit to bid hearts directly over 2♣. This bid puts partner in control of the auction; the only real downside I can see is that partner may have a "guess" whether to bid 3NT or 3♠ on certain auctions.... but it turns out neither decision can really lead to disaster.

On the actual bidding I'd go with 4♥. Small doubletons are usually a bad holding for slam hands. I think it's pretty clear to bid 4♥ on xx QJxx Qxxx xxx, and with no singletons in the hand I'm not sure the fifth heart really adds that much.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Oct 6 2005, 11:45 AM, said:

Assuming I have shown this hand up to this point then I can just bid 4h now...all I have is an extra heart I assume. I also assume 3h was not forcing.

At the risk of sounding as if my opinions had the force of law, and well-knowing that 'what I think' is not always so...... I would be very surprised if even 1% of the expert community thought that 3♥ was non-forcing. To me, it absolutely has to be a force.

[han]

No abstain, but I don't like the methods.

I would not have bid 2NT, I think the hand is a little bit too strong. Close though.

Now it is hard to catch up. 5H seems right even though it could already be too high. At least it paints a fairly accurate picture of our hand: no aces or kings (since 2nd negative) great hearts.

[cherdano]

P_Marlowe, on Oct 6 2005, 06:40 PM, said:

Hi,

4H, playing it safe and trying to go plus.

4H shows what I have, support and 1-2 tricks
for partner, because I can pass 3H.

4H also denies cue bids in clubs and diamonds,
hence it describes the hand fairly well.

I disagree with all your points except the first one:
1. 3H is forcing
2. I guess 2NT was a double negative, so it denied a control. I can hardly have a better hand for that: QJ-5th in trumps and 3 (!) third-round controls.
So 4H could be a hand like xx xxxx xxx xxxx.

Arend

[Al_U_Card]

mikeh, on Oct 6 2005, 12:37 PM, said:

mike777, on Oct 6 2005, 11:45 AM, said:

Assuming I have shown this hand up to this point then I can just bid 4h now...all I have is an extra heart I assume. I also assume 3h was not forcing.

At the risk of sounding as if my opinions had the force of law, and well-knowing that 'what I think' is not always so...... I would be very surprised if even 1% of the expert community thought that 3♥ was non-forcing. To me, it absolutely has to be a force.

Isn't 2C to be forcing to game in a suit opposite a balanced yarboro because there is trump support? This hand certainly qualifies......for a slam try

[Trpltrbl]

I disagree a little with 2NT, so now I have to do something.
5♥ seems nice, letting pd know I have max for my minimum and good ♥ support, and let's not forget doubleton ♠.

GBB

[dcvetkov]

My guess is that 6♥ will go down more often than not, assuming some average 2C opener, and maybe 5-4-2-2 distribution with opener and people also tend to stretch a little to open 2C..
This hand lack controls or a singleton so I will downgrade and bid only 4H. Parther will move on with some powerhouse.

P.S I dont agree with second negative though... This hands is a litle stronger then complete yarborough.


Cheers

[mikeh]

dcvetkov, on Oct 6 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

My guess is that 6♥ will go down more often than not, assuming some average 2C opener, and maybe 5-4-2-2 distribution with opener and people also tend to stretch a little to open 2C..

Most experts do not stretch to open 2♣ with any kind of 2-suiter

No one suggests bidding 6♥: the question is whether the risk of bidding 5♥ (which cannot be logically misunderstood after your second negative) and going down is outweighed by the risk of missing 6♥ if you bid only 4♥.

Since the consensus is that 3♥ is forcing, 4♥ could be literally based on a yarborough: x xxx xxxxx xxxx is one possibility.

So partner will not move over 4♥ unless he has an incredible hand or, as Roland's other post suggests, you hesitate before bidding 4♥ (I am not suggesting for one second that the real-life declarer intentionally took advantage of the hesitation: such use of UI is rarely conscious).

Thus you do not need to guess whether 6♥ is going down... just bid 5♥ (describing your hand) and partner can do the right thing.. after all, isn't that what we have partners for?

[junyi_zhu]

Walddk, on Oct 6 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

Responder, IMPs, vulnerable.

2♣ - 2♦*
2♠ - 2N**
3♥ - ??

* Waiting
** Negative

What now?

Roland

If your 2nt denies controls, you can now safely cuebid 4D to show DQ and slam interest:)
Now partner would go to slam with
SAKQxx HAKxx DKx CAx.

[kenrexford]

I'd make a Picture Jump to 5D. This may seem weird, but it cannot logically be showing a stiff diamond (what, I have two spades, one diamond and five-five in clubs and hearts and bid 2NT???). I also cannot want to play 5D and have twice passed up this bid.

So, 5D MUST show the Queen of diamonds and great trump support, with no side control. The normal expectation for a Picture Jump is 5422, with good four-card support for partner and a player second suit. I cannot have that good a hand after 2NT. The diamonds are limited to Q at best, for the same reason. Hearts are equally limited to Queen at best. Not much else can be held. In that context, four-card heart support does not justify the five-level. So, 5D should show 2542 pattern, with both red Queens. Amazingly, I have that very hand.

Now, if I could bid 2NT with a highly unbalanced hand with two-card spade support, then 5D should be a Splinter. But, I cannot imagine a hand where I would not introduce a suit over 2S, having a doubleton tolerance for partner, a stiff, and at least 5-5 or 6-4 pattern. If I am 1561, for example, I'd still bid 3C, even on a yarborough.

So, 5D should be a Picture Jump. Is it good enough? Sure. We might go down, but such is life.