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If we watch at bidding as is explained by opener 1♠=4/+ spades than in FSF and (also "for exclusion") W has yet to space to confirm the subsequent 2♥ with the answer of 3♠(=5th card). With the first answer of 2♣ was announced an hand for "good 9 points" and with 3♦ bid partner can have a 5-4 in club with QJxxx and QJ10x in diamond suits almost and a King able to get in 3NT.
Responding to 4th Suit Forcing Three-level 4th Suit Forcing
#21
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Posted 2018-August-08, 15:09
#22
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Posted 2018-August-08, 15:20
Lovera, on 2018-August-08, 15:09, said:
the answer of 3♠(=5th card)
2♥ shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts. So the problem is that West has nothing to add - other than the club support, but the question is if West wants to bypass 3NT.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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Posted 2018-August-08, 15:36
helene_t, on 2018-August-08, 15:20, said:
2♥ shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts. So the problem is that West has nothing to add - other than the club support, but the question is if West wants to bypass 3NT.
And just for do not bypass 3NT (also for points) that the first bidding leaved the possibility of a 5th card (yes subsequently confirmed by 2♥) but now this (lacking ) information is utilized just with this aim.
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Posted 2018-August-08, 17:12
helene_t, on 2018-August-08, 15:20, said:
2♥ shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts. So the problem is that West has nothing to add - other than the club support, but the question is if West wants to bypass 3NT.
IMHO, considering West's POV is the wrong side. If east was concerned about bypassing 3NT, he (or she) should not have bid 3D. West's job at this point is to describe his hand, not guess as to east's intentions.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#25
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Posted 2018-August-08, 22:20
Tramticket, on 2018-August-08, 05:34, said:
Yes, I understand. I am just highlighting the paradox: You want to make finding a major-suit fit a priority, but you also need(?) a default bid. You would like the default bid not to take you past 3NT and you don't want to bid 3NT without a stop. It isn't possible to achieve all of these objectives
Only opener's (first) major is used as a "default" rebid. Bidding responder's major shows support.
For example, after
1H-1S
2C-2D*
now:
2H = default rebid
2S = shows 3-card spade support (or 2, if you raise 1S unconditionally with 3 - but even then, I think most who do raise on 3 would not do so if they had extras)
2NT = diamond stopper
3C = a 5th club (5-5 or better shape)
3D = pattern (0544)
3H, 3S = I have no idea, someone enlighten me
3NT = diamond stopper and extras
Note that after the 2S showing support for responder, responder can repeat 4SF (3D) to say "good to hear you've got some spades, but I only have 4. What I really need is that diamond stopper".
ahydra
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Posted 2018-August-08, 23:13
Each convention needs partnership understanding and 4th suit depends n that plus some logic.
I am not crazy about the 3 NT I chose, but I think with 5-4-2-2 I show a flat hand not yet interested in slam unless partner had in mind to support one of my suits or has an independent suit.
Otherwise, I would just show 3S to show a minimum. If partner doesn't have one of my suits he should have a diamond stopper. Not playing
2/1 in this case amplifies that 3 diamond bidder must have direction to risk wrong-siding NT. But I have been wrong before!
Good question sir.
I am not crazy about the 3 NT I chose, but I think with 5-4-2-2 I show a flat hand not yet interested in slam unless partner had in mind to support one of my suits or has an independent suit.
Otherwise, I would just show 3S to show a minimum. If partner doesn't have one of my suits he should have a diamond stopper. Not playing
2/1 in this case amplifies that 3 diamond bidder must have direction to risk wrong-siding NT. But I have been wrong before!
Good question sir.
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Posted 2018-August-09, 00:45
When Partner bid 3D he was fully prepared for a 4C response from opener.Therfore my bid is 4C.Had the hand lacked one honor n clubs ,my bid would be 3S.
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Posted 2018-August-09, 01:21
helene_t, on 2018-August-08, 15:20, said:
2♥ shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts. So the problem is that West has nothing to add - other than the club support, but the question is if West wants to bypass 3NT.
The question is also whether West wants to show club support with only two cards. It may seem obvious that ♣AK is likely to be as useful as three-card support, but when west shows some club support she is also tending to show a diamond singleton (or void) - but west actually has a semi-balanced hand.
#29
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Posted 2018-August-09, 02:13
The responses are divided about whether or not there should be a default response (Ahydra and P_Marlowe suggest the 3♥ should be the default, others suggest that 3♠ is the default) or no default response, but attempt to make the most descriptive bid (nullve and dslawse think that the most descriptive bid is to emphasise the semi-balanced shape with 3NT, even without a stop, Helene_T and others go for showing the club fragment in support of partner, at the expense of going past 3NT and suggesting an unbalanced shape).
Partner and I have some discussions ahead!
East's hand:
♠ K74
♥ A
♦ AK73
♣ QT765
We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.
Partner and I have some discussions ahead!
East's hand:
♠ K74
♥ A
♦ AK73
♣ QT765
We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.
#30
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:08
Winstonm, on 2018-August-08, 17:12, said:
IMHO, considering West's POV is the wrong side. If east was concerned about bypassing 3NT, he (or she) should not have bid 3D. West's job at this point is to describe his hand, not guess as to east's intentions.
Wrong IMO
E could be looking at a situation where he wants to play 4♥ if opener has a 5th one, 3N otherwise, you don't bypass 3N lightly.
#31
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:12
Hi,
learning in Bridge in Irland, I learned, that openers first bid was the default, but in some cases
using openers first suit, burns more than one step.
Even in the given seq., a 3H bid as default, allows responder to bid 3S, suggesting to play 4S in a
5-2 fit.
I also strongly believe, that having a bid, that says, I have told you every thing, nothing more to add.
is important.
With kind regards
Marlowe
PS: On reflection, showing 55 in the majors is more relevant than 64, so when opener has shown both
majors, going with spade as default bid, is certainly sensible, caters for different hands.
You could also weaken the certainty, what 3H / 3S showes, say you could bid 3S with a good 5 card suit,
selling it as a 6 carder, and bid 3H with a good 4 card suit ..., this may eliminate the need for a default
bid.
learning in Bridge in Irland, I learned, that openers first bid was the default, but in some cases
using openers first suit, burns more than one step.
Even in the given seq., a 3H bid as default, allows responder to bid 3S, suggesting to play 4S in a
5-2 fit.
I also strongly believe, that having a bid, that says, I have told you every thing, nothing more to add.
is important.
With kind regards
Marlowe
PS: On reflection, showing 55 in the majors is more relevant than 64, so when opener has shown both
majors, going with spade as default bid, is certainly sensible, caters for different hands.
You could also weaken the certainty, what 3H / 3S showes, say you could bid 3S with a good 5 card suit,
selling it as a 6 carder, and bid 3H with a good 4 card suit ..., this may eliminate the need for a default
bid.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#32
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:15
Tramticket, on 2018-August-09, 02:13, said:
The responses are divided about whether or not there should be a default response (Ahydra and P_Marlowe suggest the 3♥ should be the default, others suggest that 3♠ is the default) or no default response, but attempt to make the most descriptive bid (nullve and dslawse think that the most descriptive bid is to emphasise the semi-balanced shape with 3NT, even without a stop, Helene_T and others go for showing the club fragment in support of partner, at the expense of going past 3NT and suggesting an unbalanced shape).
Partner and I have some discussions ahead!
East's hand:
♠ K74
♥ A
♦ AK73
♣ QT765
We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.
Partner and I have some discussions ahead!
East's hand:
♠ K74
♥ A
♦ AK73
♣ QT765
We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.
I do think the FSF bid was misguided, you have a fit, why not show it? And a jump to 3S, instead of the 3D,
should show SI?
Showing the fit simplifies life, partner will cue any club honor he has.
Of course you may end up in 6S, when 6S is down, and 6C makes.
nevertheless ... discussion about the meanings / follow ups of FSF
is certainly worthwhile.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#33
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:49
P_Marlowe, on 2018-August-09, 03:15, said:
I do think the FSF bid was misguided, you have a fit, why not show it? And a jump to 3S, instead of the 3D,
should show SI?
Showing the fit simplifies life, partner will cue any club honor he has.
Of course you may end up in 6S, when 6S is down, and 6C makes.
nevertheless ... discussion about the meanings / follow ups of FSF
is certainly worthwhile.
should show SI?
Showing the fit simplifies life, partner will cue any club honor he has.
Of course you may end up in 6S, when 6S is down, and 6C makes.
nevertheless ... discussion about the meanings / follow ups of FSF
is certainly worthwhile.
3♠ is nat NF in an Acol auction, 3 card support and an 11 count (where 2♠ could be a 9 count and 2).
4SF is fine but should be followed by 4♠ showing a hand too good to just bid 4♠.
#34
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:58
I mislike the 4SF bid, too. And I don't think East should be too ambitious about slam. HCP-wise it's slim anyway and the hand is at least a partial misfit with shortness in openers second suit and a likely shortage of opener in ♣ or ♦.
Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.
So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.
Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.
So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.
#35
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:58
I mislike the 4SF bid, too. And I don't think East should be too ambitious about slam. HCP-wise it's slim anyway and the hand is at least a partial misfit with shortness in openers second suit and a likely shortage of opener in ♣ or ♦.
Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.
So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.
Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.
So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.
#36
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Posted 2018-August-09, 03:59
I mislike the 4SF bid, too. And I don't think East should be too ambitious about slam. HCP-wise it's slim anyway and the hand is at least a partial misfit with shortness in openers second suit and a likely shortage of opener in ♣ or ♦.
Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.
So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.
Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.
So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.
#37
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Posted 2018-August-09, 04:01
Sorry for the multiple post.
#38
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Posted 2018-August-09, 04:06
Did forget about Acol so 4SF followed by 4♠ it is, as cyberyeti said.
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Posted 2018-August-09, 04:24
JanisW, on 2018-August-09, 04:06, said:
Did forget about Acol so 4SF followed by 4♠ it is, as cyberyeti said.
..., it is Acol, but what is the difference between 2S instead of a jump to 3S?
2S in the given seq., should show a inv. raise with 3 card support,
should it only be 2?
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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Posted 2018-August-09, 05:06
P_Marlowe, on 2018-August-09, 04:24, said:
..., it is Acol, but what is the difference between 2S instead of a jump to 3S?
2S in the given seq., should show a inv. raise with 3 card support,
should it only be 2?
2S in the given seq., should show a inv. raise with 3 card support,
should it only be 2?
After 1♠, 2♣; 2♥:
- 2♠ preference (often false preference) - usually only 2 spades, occasionally 3 spades in a poor hand.
- 3♠ invitational with 3 spades. Around 10-11 HCP / 8 losers.
- 4♠ to play opposite a minimum opening. Approximately 12-15ish / 7 losers.
- 4th suit forcing then spades for stronger hands.