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our 2C structure

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-16, 22:23

Not of general interest, but looking for feedback.

Our 2C=10-15 with 6 clubs and could have four spades or four diamonds but not four hearts.

2D-ask, starts at 12+
.....2H-single-suited
..........2S-GF relays for exact shape
..........2N-nf, no fit
..........3C-nf, fit
.....2S-four spades, min
..........2N-relays for exact shape
..........3C-nf
.....2N-four spades, max
..........3C-relays for exact shape
.....3C-four diamonds, min
..........3D-relays for exact shape
.....3D-four diamonds, max, higher shortness
.....3H-max, 2146
.....etc.

2M-nf, constructive
.....2N-weak, misfitting
.....3C-strong, misfitting
2N-forces 3C
.....3C-forced
..........P-to play
..........3L-to play
3C-constructive (9-11) and club tolerance
.....3D-inv+ 4 diamons
.....3H-inv+ 4 spades
.....3S-asks for 3N
.....3N-positional for 3N
3D-5/5 majors, inv+
.....3M-possible 2-fit, weak
3M-6M, f

Other idea is using 3M as fit showing jumps.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 00:21

This has some interesting similarities and differences from what Sam and I play. Our 2 structure is similar, except we can have four hearts also so use 2=diams, 2N=hearts, 3=spades min, 3+=spades max.

The main difference I think, is that we use 2M as a forcing call. This helps a lot on invitational and better hands to reach the right contract, while (obviously) meaning we have no way to "drop dead" in a major.

We also prefer 3 as preemptive and 2N as a constructive or GF raise (usually it seems better to preempt with your preempt rather than making an artificial forcing call). I think this is well worth whatever gains you get from your 2N...3...new suit sequence.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 01:03

Yeah, I've never seen a good writeup of how 2M is supposed to function and even what the requirements for it are. If it's nf, then it seems like opener is only likely to pass with 2-cd support or 3-cd support and minimum. Meaning that we wind up in a 5-2 fit sometimes with a 6-3 club fit available.

Pretty sure Meckwell uses 2M as nf constructive and I'm guessing that they like to be able to respond light and then not worry if they miss their best fit.

They use 2N as a puppet (for the weak hands) but they use the continuations to show 5/5 GF hands.

I think I'd rather bid 3C, too, with the weak hand and 2N with the constructive hand. This means that we can't decide to show 5/5s in the other suits (like Meckwell) but we have the relay bid to sort these hands out. We can't clarify the 32 when opener is 7321 but I'm not sure how important that is.

What do you think of...

2D-ask/relay
2M-nf constructive
2N-constructive raise (9-11)
3C-weak raise
3D-5/5 majors, inv+

should 3M be forcing 6cds or FSJs or?

We're missing diamond GI and sign offs. should we care?
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#4 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 04:03

I am playing slightly different 2m openings - as 5m+unbal no 4M (added minor 2-suiters, no 64) and what i play is quite similar to your scheme.

I think it is more logical to switch meanings in 2-2M-2N/3. You can correct to clubs with good 6 suit, else you pass. I don't think 2N should show misfit, just maximum and no 3 card fit.

Quote

If it's nf, then it seems like opener is only likely to pass with 2-cd support or 3-cd support and minimum.
Opener will have 2 card support most of the time, therefore i don't understand your usage of "only". Without good 6+ suit you also pass. I am skeptical about passing with 3 card fit, must be a dead minimum.

I also like 2-2N as natural invitation here, i needed tihs to optimize relays, but imo it has quite a lot of merit anyway.
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 10:10

Personally, I think that 2C-2M, 2N or 3C should say more about opener's suit quality than anything.

After 2C-2H,

2N with Kxx x Axx Kxxxxx and
3C with Kxx x xxx AQJxxx

I don't think we have the luxury of sorting out whether opener is minimum or medium. The issue is whether the clubs are rebiddable opposite a stiff or void (because responder will correct to 3C with two). It's not only a question of whether we're playing 2N or 3C. Responder may have to decide between passing 3C or rebidding his major. He'll be disappointed at passing that first hand with Ax KQJxxx xxxx x.

When opener is maximum, he should just shoot out 3N.
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#6 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 11:25

I thought about it a little and looked at a few hands. I think I like Adam's idea of making 2M forcing but invitational. It seems like responder can afford to suggest a major if he has club support but needs to pass other hands with the same values.

So I'm back to...

2C-2M,
.....2N-minimum
.....3C-maximum

If opener has a minimum, then responder will correct to 3C with the hand that has fewer points but club tolerance.

If opener has a maximum, then responder can correct to 3N (over 3C) with those hands that have more points but not necessarily club support.

2C-2H, 2S would be minimum with 4 spades

2C-2M, 2N/3C-3L-invitational and descriptive (6 cd major or 5/5 hand)
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#7 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 11:27

I've come to hijack your thread :lol:

Actually I just had this kind of structure idea over 2, totally different from yours. Our 2 is 6+, can have 4 card major. (Or 4405)


2C ->

2D = transfer to hearts, 4 or 5 cards. (If 4 at least inv. with some club tolerance)
2H = transfer to spades yada yada yada
2S = Multi-invitational+ (Sort of like in Heeman if you know it), 6+Major, inv+
-> 2NT = doesn't accept invite for hearts
3C = doesn't accept invite for spades, accepts for hearts
3D+ = accepts for both, some descriptive bids, haven't figured it all out yet.
2NT = Nat invitational
3C = Pre-emptive (Can switch these two if you want more room for something, I don't think you need it too much)
3D = Diamonds I guess
3H/S = Fit jumps. (5/3)
3NT = To play

So mainly my idea was using that multi-invitational bid here. It's not perfect when you get 2NT response and have spades cause you don't know if partner would accept the invite. You can just take your chances with either 3C or 3S. (Everything else is of course GF and usually slam invitational)
So the main purpose is to differentiate 5 and 6 card majors in one bid and in addition 2S works like a relay which is more likely to give you useful information when you aren't going to relay whole shape for slam purposes.

Tell me what you think? Am I missing something obvious or could this be a good structure to work on?
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 11:36

2C-

.....2D-asking (could have GI diamonds)
..........2H-single-suited
...............2S-GF relay
..........2S-min, 4 spades
...............2N-GF relay
..........2N-max, 4 spades
...............3C-GF relay
..........3C-min, 4 diamonds
...............3D-GF relay
..........3D-max, 4 diamonds, higher shortness
..........etc.
.....2H-f, 5 hearts, constructive with club support or GI
..........2S-4 spades, minimum
..........2N-minimum
...............P-GI without club support
...............3C-to play, constructive with club support or GI with club support
..........3C-medium
..........3H-minimum, 3 hearts
..........other-maximum, natural
.....2S-f, 5 spades, constructive with club support or GI
..........2N-minimum
...............P-GI without club support
...............3C-to play, constructive with club support or GI with club support
..........3C-medium
..........3S-minimum, 3 spades
..........other-maximum, natural (remember responder could have 5/5)
.....2N-9-11 with club tolerance/fit
..........3C-natural, nf
..........other-natural, f
.....3C-0-8
.....3D-?
.....3M-?

What should 3D or 3M be? GF suit? splinters? fsj? other?
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#9 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 11:50

To say a few things about the forcing 2M response...

There are definitely some top-flight pairs who play 2M forcing. Cohen-Berkowitz come to mind. Since non-forcing is the old CC Wei precision "standard" it's not clear that those playing non-forcing have done much of an analysis, rather than just playing on momentum.

The forcing approach helps a lot on hands with a major and a club fit -- bidding with these hands can help you find a light game with a double-fit, and also confuses the opponents a little (because you're showing more values than you have) and makes them less likely to balance over the eventual 3. It also helps with hand types such as 5-5 hands; you don't need to devote some other bid to show 5-5 when you can bid your major first and second suit later. And it helps with "fit jump" kind of hands, which are often better described by bidding your major and then making a forcing club raise, rather than by relaying (which can be late to find out whether partner's values are the right type/location for slam). It also helps with stopper diagnosis on some hands where you want to decide whether to play in 3NT (again something relays are not so hot for). And then there are hands where you want to just check for a major fit and then bid 3NT if there isn't one, where relaying out opener's whole shape gives the defense a lot of information (and might randomly wrong side the final contract as well).

You also mentioned some issues of how to decide whether to pass the constructive NF 2M advance. Another thing worth mentioning is that the NF 2M bid is very anti field. People playing standard or 2/1 are going to bid 1-1M-2 on these hands and are unlikely to land in a 5-2 major fit (typically landing in 3 or 2NT instead on those hands). Of course, sometimes the 5-2 major fit will be better, but it will also sometimes be worse. Assuming you're a good card player relative to the field, you probably don't want to be in anti-field contracts "randomly" -- certainly they pay off when you reach a better spot, but just being in different spots for no obvious reason tends to reduce your opportunities for pickups through card play.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 12:13

I think there's a place for 2C-2S, 2N-3D as nf 5/5. Agree?

Let's say I respond 2M with a GF hand and 5M and club fit. Partner retreats to 2N or 3C. How do I show my club support? Seems like we're at the 4-level...

2C-2H, 3C-3S splinter? 4D splinter? RKC? What are your followups?

Thanks for helping, too. I think we're getting closer.
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#11 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 12:35

straube, on Oct 17 2010, 01:13 PM, said:

I think there's a place for 2C-2S, 2N-3D as nf 5/5.  Agree?

Let's say I respond 2M with a GF hand and 5M and club fit.  Partner retreats to 2N or 3C.  How do I show my club support?  Seems like we're at the 4-level...

2C-2H, 3C-3S splinter?  4D splinter?  RKC?  What are your followups?

Thanks for helping, too.  I think we're getting closer.

I think you can solve the 2C - 2M (with GF) - 2N/3C problem by making the direct 3H / 3S as 6+ invite.

In other words, 2C - 2M - 2N/3C - 3M is GF. You can even try to gain some space by transferring at the 3 level after opener's 2N / 3C bid (starting with 3).


2 - 2 / 2 (forcing) - 2N / 3:
.....P
.....3C: NF, opener may carry on
.....3D: GF transfer with s, accept shows exactly 3 card support
.....3H: GF, transfer to s, accept shows 2 card support
.....3S: GF, primary M and (or possibly fit and doubt about NT)
.....3N: COG

The 3 level structure could be:

3D: 5/5 in the majors, GI
3H / 3S: Invite with 6+
foobar on BBO
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#12 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 13:14

I'm thinking 2C-3M should be FSJs and forcing. They should show 5/4 or 6/3.

2C-3D could be GI+ 5/5 majors

2C-2M, 2N/3C, 3D could be artificial GF

2C-2M, 2N/3C, 3OM might show club support and be COG.

In this way 2C-2M, 2N/3C-3M would be misfitting GI with 6 cd suit.

This distinguishes from GI 6 cd suits that have club support.
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#13 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 13:27

straube, on Oct 17 2010, 11:10 AM, said:

After 2C-2H,

2N with Kxx x Axx Kxxxxx

Just pass
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#14 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 13:55

awm, on Oct 17 2010, 12:50 PM, said:

The forcing approach helps a lot on hands with a major and a club fit -- bidding with these hands can help you find a light game with a double-fit.

I don't get this. You bid on less hands, but boast about finding light games? Mind that with 3 card support opener should bid anyway, and after constructive NF approach you find more games not less.

Quote

And then there are hands where you want to just check for a major fit and then bid 3NT if there isn't one, where relaying out opener's whole shape gives the defense a lot of information (and might randomly wrong side the final contract as well)

Ever heard of relay breaks? And most relay methods are based of opener showing 3M/no3M ASAP anyway.

Quote

People playing standard or 2/1 are going to bid 1♣-1M-2♣ on these hands and are unlikely to land in a 5-2 major fit (typically landing in 3♣ or 2NT instead on those hands).

And what is your suggestion? Only way how to get to 2 is pass. AFAIK 1-1M-2-2M is natural and non forcing. Requirements for 2-2M aren't that much more different. I wouldn't personally worry about this situation, our bidding probably has put enough pressure for opponents not to enter auction.

Guys, if you take away 5M+ GF from 2 i suggest you use 2 as natural and forcing as well... not much is left in 2 anyway.
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#15 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 14:03

Not passing a forcing bid. The idea is that 2M now is either constructive with club support or is GI+ such that 2N may be a good contract or partner can correct to 3C.
Giving up here on 2M constructive without club support. These hands pass 2C now.

Changed the following to be able to play 3D and give up the ability to play 2S.

2C-

.....2D-asking (could have GI diamonds)
..........2H-single-suited
...............2S-GF relay
..........2S-four diamonds, min
...............2N-GF relay
...............3m-to play
..........2N-four diamonds, max
...............3C-GF relay
..........3C-four spades, minimum
...............3D-GF relay
...............3S-to play
..........3D-four spades, max, higher
..........etc.
.....2H-f, 5 hearts, constructive with club support or GI
..........2S-4 spades, minimum
..........2N-minimum
...............P-GI without club support
...............3C-to play, constructive with club support or GI with club support
...............3OM-COG with club support, less suit oriented than fsj, looks for 3N
...............3D-artificial GF looks for 2-cd support
..........3C-medium
..........3H-minimum, 3 hearts
..........other-maximum, natural
.....2S-f, 5 spades, constructive with club support or GI
..........2N-minimum
...............P-GI without club support
...............3C-to play, constructive with club support or GI with club support
...............3D-artificial GF looks for 2-cd support
...............3H-COG with club support, less suit oriented than fsj, looks for 3N
..........3C-medium
..........3S-minimum, 3 spades
..........other-maximum, natural (remember responder could have 5/5)
.....2N-9-11 with club tolerance/fit
..........3C-natural, nf
..........other-natural, f
.....3C-0-8
.....3D-5S/5H, GI+
.....3M-FSJ, forcing, 5/5 or 6/4 or concentrated (5/4 or 6/3)
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 14:42

I'm not going to comment on the forcing vesus non-forcing 2M response debate because I have no experience of the forcing version. Suffice to say that I believe transfers handle those hands better though.

You could easily solve your diamond sign-off issue by using 2C - 3D as that and moving your 5-5 majors invite up to 2C - 3H. Of course you could also start that hand type off with 2D and assign the sequence 2C - 2D - 2H - 3D specifically to be 5-5 majors, INV. Up to you really. The 6-4 major hands should be simple to sort out via your relay structure so I would suggest using 2C - 3S as a good raise in clubs instead. (Or see last sentence for further thoughts)

Finally, I think you could make your relay structure more symmetric and therefore easier to remember. For example

2C - 2D

2H = 0-3 spades, min (2S relay then same responses as for max hands)
2S = 4 spades (see below)
2N = 4 diamonds, 6+ clubs, 0-3 spades, max
3C = 3 hearts, 6+ clubs, 0-3 spades, 0-3 diamonds, max
3D = 3 spades, 6+ clubs, 0-2 hearts, 0-3 diamonds, max
3H = 3 diamonds, 6+ clubs, 0-2 hearts, 0-2 spades, max
3S = 2=2=2=7, max
3N = 8+ clubs, max

and

2C - 2D - 2S - 2N

3C = 0-1 hearts
3D = 4=2=1=6
3H = 4=3=0=6
3S = 4=1=1=7
3N = 7+ clubs, side void

This kind of structure allows you always to find a 3 card major suit fragment with partner below 3NT. Naturally you could use the same responses with high/middle/low shortage, and probably should if you use such a scheme over 1C, but then you need a different route for GF hands with both majors since you cannot be sure of finding the 3 card fragment opposite. Perhaps that hand would be another candidate for the 2C - 3S bid.
(-: Zel :-)
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#17 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 15:08

Here's how we might find more games.

Lets say for definition that constructive hands are about 9-11, GI 12-13, an GF 14+ just keeping in mind that we're opening 10 cts.

What we're talking about doing is giving up on the 9-11s that don't have club support. Without that, opener has a smaller chance of establishing his suit.

Now 2M is forcing but can be constructive (9-11) with club help.

This gains in that we don't have to play 5-2 fits when a better club fit is available. It also gains in that opener is forced to show whether he has a minimum or medium hand along the way to a 3C contract.

I think making 2D natural would be awful. We still have a variety of balanced hands as well as diamond hands, etc that need to be able to relay.
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#18 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 18:32

wclass__ said:

I don't get this. You bid on less hands, but boast about finding light games? Mind that with 3 card support opener should bid anyway, and after constructive NF approach you find more games not less.


Suppose I hold 5-3 and about 8 hcp. If I bid 2 in a NF constructive style, I'd expect partner to often pass with doubleton and a minimum (or apparently even singleton and a minimum, given that you suggested opener pass with 3136 in this very same thread). That seems to be a lousy contract. By bidding 2 forcing, I get to game when partner has 3-card support (double fit!) and otherwise play 3, which is fine (9-card fit) and might make it harder for opponents to enter the bidding since I would bid the same with 5-2 or maybe even 5-1 and more serious invite values.

wclass__ said:

Ever heard of relay breaks? And most relay methods are based of opener showing 3M/no3M ASAP anyway.


Yes, I know about relay breaks. No, they do not normally allow you to show/deny stoppers in all suits. Quite often the bidding is high enough that only one relay break below 3NT is available (after you determine there is no major fit). If you're lucky this might ask for the right stopper... if you're not lucky it won't. Keep in mind that opener can have 4 or a 4M... if you look at Straube's structure you will relay to 2-2-2(no 4-side suit)-2(GF relay) and there isn't enough space for opener to show all combinations of three-card major holdings below 3 (which yields only one relay break below 3NT); in fact I suspect that some patterns will be bidding 3+ after the 2 GF relay (which yields no relay break below 3NT).

wclass__ said:

And what is your suggestion? Only way how to get to 2 is pass. AFAIK 1-1M-2-2M is natural and non forcing. Requirements for 2-2M aren't that much more different. I wouldn't personally worry about this situation, our bidding probably has put enough pressure for opponents not to enter auction.


I'm not suggesting that we play 2. These are invitational hands after all, the standard bidders are not bidding 1-1M-2-PASS. But in standard bidding after 1-1M, opener can raise on three-card support and an unbalanced hand. So I would expect the standard auction without a 5-3 major fit to go 1-1M-2 and then either 2NT or 3 (depending on club fit). If we play 2M as forcing, our auction will be 2-2M and then opener rebids something (depending on strength and suit quality) and there is a good chance we also will play either 2NT or 3 when the invite is declined (albeit maybe 2NT from the other side). However, if 2M is NF constructive, we will often play in 2M on a 5-2 fit instead of playing 2NT/3. Obviously this might be better, but it also might not be better (depends a lot on the quality of the major suit, how many clubs responder actually has, etc). Certainly this is an anti-field spot.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#19 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 18:37

ok. use Atul's suggestion...

2D-GI+, break of relay=suggestion to play
.....2H-single-suited
..........2S-GF relay
.....2S-four diamonds, minimum
.....2N-four diamonds, maximum
.....3C-four spades, minimum
.....3D-four spades, maximum, higher
.....etc.

2H-f, 5 hearts, 9-11 with club tolerance or GI hearts or...
.....2S-four spades, minimum
.....2N-minimum, no fit
.....3C-medium, no fit
..........3D-6H, GI+
..........3H-5S/6H, f
..........3S-5D, f
..........3N-to play

2S-f, 5 spades, 9-11 with club tolerance or GI spades or...
.....2N-minimum
.....3C-medium, no fit
..........3D-5H
..........3H-6S, GI+
..........3S-5D
..........3N-to play

2N-9-11, club tolerance
.....3C-sign off
.....other-natural, GF

3C-0-8
3D-to play
3H-f, FSJ
3S-f, FSJ
3N-to play
4C-weak
4D-RKC
4M-to play

still missing splinters
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#20 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-17, 19:58

2D-ask, relay breaks =nf
.....2H-single-suited
.....2S-4 diamonds, minimum
.....2N-4 diamonds, maximum
.....3C-4 spades, minimum
.....3D-4 spades, maximum, higher shortness

2H-f, constructive with club tolerance or GI+ without
.....2S-4 spades, weak
.....2N-minimum
..........3C-to play
..........3D-5 diamonds, nf
..........3H-nf, tends to deny club fit
..........3S-splinter in support of clubs
..........3N-to play
..........4D-splinter in support of clubs
.....3C-medium
.....other-f, natural

2S-f, constructive with club
.....2N-minimum
..........3C-to play
..........3D-5 diamonds, nf
..........3H-5 hearts, nf
..........3S-nf, tends to deny club fit
..........3N-to play
..........4D-splinter in support of clubs
..........4H-splinter in support of clubs
.....3C-medium
.....other-f, natural

2N-9-11, club tolerance
3C-weak
3D-natural, nf
3M-fsj, forcing, 6M and club fit
.....3N-both side suits stopped
.....4C-nf
3N-to play
4C-weak
4D-RKC

Now 5M/4+ clubs can show the major and then delay splinter while FSJs now show 6M and 3+ clubs.

We could put the GF 5/5 hands into 2N but that supposes that opener will cooperate and not bid 3N. It's bad system design I think. Better with the GF 5/5s to relay I think.

The other thing this lacks is the ability to make a club splinter without also holding a 5-cd major suit. So if I have 3-4-1-5 or 1-4-4-4 I can't really find out if partner likes my shortness or not. These GF splinters do seem rare though.
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