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our 2C structure

#21 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 08:40

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Suppose I hold 5♥-3♣ and about 8 hcp. If I bid 2♥ in a NF constructive style, I'd expect partner to often pass with doubleton and a minimum (or apparently even singleton and a minimum, given that you suggested opener pass with 3136 in this very same thread). That seems to be a lousy contract. By bidding 2♥ forcing, I get to game when partner has 3-card support (double fit!) and otherwise play 3♣, which is fine (9-card fit) and might make it harder for opponents to enter the bidding since I would bid the same with 5♥-2♣ or maybe even 5♥-1♣ and more serious invite values.


One sentence that has direct connection to what i said. I wouldn't be so excited, both 1-1M-2/2M and 2-2M do better finding low games.

Quote

Yes, I know about relay breaks. No, they do not normally allow you to show/deny stoppers in all suits. Quite often the bidding is high enough that only one relay break below 3NT is available (after you determine there is no major fit). If you're lucky this might ask for the right stopper... if you're not lucky it won't. Keep in mind that opener can have 4♦ or a 4M... if you look at Straube's structure you will relay to 2♣-2♦-2♥(no 4-side suit)-2♠(GF relay) and there isn't enough space for opener to show all combinations of three-card major holdings below 3♦ (which yields only one relay break below 3NT); in fact I suspect that some patterns will be bidding 3♥+ after the 2♠ GF relay (which yields no relay break below 3NT).


Where did i say it does? If you didn't understand i was referring to

Quote

relaying out opener's whole shape
that is obviously not necessary.

Quote

I'm not suggesting that we play 2♣. These are invitational hands after all, the standard bidders are not bidding 1♣-1M-2♣-PASS. But in standard bidding after 1♣-1M, opener can raise on three-card support and an unbalanced hand. So I would expect the standard auction without a 5-3 major fit to go 1♣-1M-2♣ and then either 2NT or 3♣ (depending on club fit). If we play 2M as forcing, our auction will be 2♣-2M and then opener rebids something (depending on strength and suit quality) and there is a good chance we also will play either 2NT or 3♣ when the invite is declined (albeit maybe 2NT from the other side). However, if 2M is NF constructive, we will often play in 2M on a 5-2 fit instead of playing 2NT/3♣. Obviously this might be better, but it also might not be better (depends a lot on the quality of the major suit, how many clubs responder actually has, etc). Certainly this is an anti-field spot.

Having no bid for hands that would have gone 1-1M-2-2M is more anti field. 2-2M tends to be 6 card suit, or good 5 and some club support. As lighter your HCP values as more likely you are to have a really good suit and some fit. If we really buy light 2M (having 6-3 fit available), opponents should worry more about being anti-field than we, and that's what i said in my previous post. Best advice i can give for people worrying about being "antifield" is to play natural system.
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#22 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 10:28

LL and I use transfers, with 2NT being a forcing GI (our 2 is at least 6 clubs).
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#23 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 10:34

awm, on Oct 18 2010, 12:32 AM, said:

Yes, I know about relay breaks. No, they do not normally allow you to show/deny stoppers in all suits. Quite often the bidding is high enough that only one relay break below 3NT is available (after you determine there is no major fit). If you're lucky this might ask for the right stopper... if you're not lucky it won't. Keep in mind that opener can have 4 or a 4M... if you look at Straube's structure you will relay to 2-2-2(no 4-side suit)-2(GF relay) and there isn't enough space for opener to show all combinations of three-card major holdings below 3 (which yields only one relay break below 3NT); in fact I suspect that some patterns will be bidding 3+ after the 2 GF relay (which yields no relay break below 3NT).

It is perfectly simple to show all 3-card major fragments over 2C as I showed in my previous post. That argument is whether this is more important than showing your shortage below 3NT. The advantage of showing the fragments is that you do not need specialist bids for your GF 5-card major hands and can instead use relay breaks for stop asks. In this way you can often have stop asks for every suit. In those cases where you do not then you already know at least 9 of Opener's cards.

As I have said before I do not use relays over my 2C opening but instead use transfers. On the major-oriented hands that you describe it seems to me that transfers have an advantage; but they also suffer from the problem of not having stop asks in the other suits. As usual, each method has pros and cons and you cannot get everything.
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#24 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 10:36

You can have stop asks over major suit transfers.

After transferring, if pard does not accept the transfer, he'll often rebid 2NT or 3. At that point, 3 becomes the stop ask.

If acceptance of the xfer, 2NT becomes stop asking, with emphasis on major suit fit first.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#25 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 10:43

The standard meaning of 1C-1M, 2C-2M is that it shows a 6cd suit and is less than invitational. It might attract a raise, especially if the partnership plays WJS (such that 1C-2M is 0-5).

Having opened 2C, we've preempted ourselves as well as the competition. We could play 2C-2M as a 6cd suit nf and then we'd be with the field, but then we might miss finding out about our 5/4 major suit fits (in our case only when we have spades). I think we definitely need to be able to respond with a 5-cd suit. They're just a lot more frequent.

After 2C-2M, if 2M can be only a 5cd suit, opener has a big guess as to whether to pass or not with doubleton support.

awm's treatment of 2M makes a lot of sense to me because opener doesn't have to cater to responder having a 5cd suit with no club support.

2C-2M

.....2N-misfitting and weak
..........P-"shows" that partner has something like 12-13 points and doesn't like
................clubs. 2N may not be our best contract but we have on average 23
................hcps and it ought to make a lot of the time.
..........3C-a correction with perhaps 9-13 hcps
..........3M-six-cd wider ranging with perhaps 9-13
.....3C-misfitting and medium
..........3M-six-cd suit, interesting question whether this bid should be forcing
...............or invitational or to play. I think it should be invitational to (primarily)
...............4M. It should also probably deny club support, else an immediate FSJ
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#26 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 11:01

keylime, on Oct 18 2010, 04:36 PM, said:

You can have stop asks over major suit transfers.

After transferring, if pard does not accept the transfer, he'll often rebid 2NT or 3. At that point, 3 becomes the stop ask.

If acceptance of the xfer, 2NT becomes stop asking, with emphasis on major suit fit first.

The problem with that approach is that you lose out on invitational hands with a 4 card major (with the 2NT bid). You also have a problem after a super-accept in that the usual solution with hearts is to use 3D as a re-transfer to cater for both weak and GF hands. With spades you obviously have 3H for that so 3D usually either shows hearts or, if you bid that hand through 2D, is natural with 5+ diamonds. It is arguable which is better but you are always giving something up here.
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#27 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 12:05

Keep in mind, that our 2 denies a four card major; coupled with transfers it allows much more flexibility in the bidding.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#28 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 12:50

keylime, on Oct 18 2010, 06:05 PM, said:

Keep in mind, that our 2 denies a four card major; coupled with transfers it allows much more flexibility in the bidding.

That sounds like Unassuming Club style but even there 3D is used as a re-transfer to hearts. I guess my question here is that if 2C - 2D - 2N - 3H shows a weak hand then how do you make an invite? or show a GF hand with hearts? There just do not seem to be enough bids left over. And if a 3H rebid does not show the weak hand then how do you show it instead?
(-: Zel :-)
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#29 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 13:05

Invite hands run through 2NT. 2S is our diamond hand. 2D/H are xfers into the corresponding majors.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#30 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 13:11

keylime, on Oct 18 2010, 02:05 PM, said:

Invite hands run through 2NT. 2S is our diamond hand. 2D/H are xfers into the corresponding majors.

What do you do with GF hands that don't have a suit? I'm thinking that 2D needs to be an asking bid of some sort. We've already established that opener has 6 clubs. Why reverse gears over that in trying to show responder's pattern? Just finish showing opener's pattern? Unless, of course, responder is very distributional.
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#31 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 13:18

GF hands without a suit would simply bid game. Since our 2 denies a major, xfer acceptance shows either a doubleton or tripleton.

FWIW, I have played prior the sequence 2C-2M forcing, and found that as long as it promised six clubs itself, it was a reasonable system. I'm not a fan of 2C being 5C, 4m admittedly (rather open that 1 or Precision 2/.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#32 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 16:48

Anyone feel that hiding the GF 5M/5 and the GF 6M hands in the 2D relay is unplayable?

For this we can...

show the GI 5M/5 hands and stop at the 3-level and show GI 6M with a fit and GI 6M w/out a club fit.

We can bid our major when GF with a major and club fit or GF and desire to play our major or 3N.

We can keep 2N as a constructive raise (as opposed to multi-meaning) and can use a direct 3C raise as a blocking (weak) bid.

I know that Meckwell uses 2N as the weak raise OR GF 5M/5 hands and they use 3C as a puppet to 3D which they can then remove to 3M to show other hands.

But, Meckwell has no constructive club raise. They have to use 2D which is GI and doesn't separate constructive from weak very well. Actually, they don't try (they differentiate opener's strength into 3). Also doesn't prepare partner for a competitive auction.
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#33 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-October-20, 15:15

Sam and I actually play that 2M...3X is forcing and that a direct 3M is a GF one-suiter. This gives us no problem with the GF hands, but obviously creates some issues with the 5/5 invites (I don't see fit jump as being so hugely necessary, but I suppose we could miss out on those too). In practice I haven't found that 5/5 exactly invitational is that common a hand type, and if those do come up I usually just overbid to game. :)

In terms of relaying, my feeling is that the GF one-suiter is probably okay to relay. The GF two-suiter can be annoying when you don't have a good fit, because you really need partner to have the fourth suit locked up and may not have the methods to ask for that particular stopper. Of course, there is some tradeoff between having issues on the GF two-suiter opposite no obvious fit, versus having issues on the INV two-suiter opposite no obvious fit; my view is that the GF variety is more common and also more critical to get right.
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#34 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-20, 19:40

View Postawm, on 2010-October-20, 15:15, said:

Sam and I actually play that 2M...3X is forcing and that a direct 3M is a GF one-suiter. This gives us no problem with the GF hands, but obviously creates some issues with the 5/5 invites (I don't see fit jump as being so hugely necessary, but I suppose we could miss out on those too). In practice I haven't found that 5/5 exactly invitational is that common a hand type, and if those do come up I usually just overbid to game. :)

In terms of relaying, my feeling is that the GF one-suiter is probably okay to relay. The GF two-suiter can be annoying when you don't have a good fit, because you really need partner to have the fourth suit locked up and may not have the methods to ask for that particular stopper. Of course, there is some tradeoff between having issues on the GF two-suiter opposite no obvious fit, versus having issues on the INV two-suiter opposite no obvious fit; my view is that the GF variety is more common and also more critical to get right.



I have to admit that the FSJs don't seem to come up a lot in simulation. I do seem to come across the GI 5/5 hands and it's because of concern for not finding a fit and not having the 4th suit stopped that I kind of like having the ability to stop shy of game with these.

If I didn't need 3D as a sign off, I could use 3D, 3H, and 3S for the GF 5/5s. Or possibly these could break relay...

2C-2D,
.....2H
..........3D-two lowest
..........3H-highest and lowest
..........3S-two highest
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#35 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-21, 19:54

View Poststraube, on 2010-October-18, 13:11, said:

We've already established that opener has 6 clubs. Why reverse gears over that in trying to show responder's pattern? Just finish showing opener's pattern? Unless, of course, responder is very distributional.

I think you are missing the point about transfers. They are not about showing your shape so much as asking Opener about their hand in targeted ways. Think about a 1NT opening for a moment. Here Opener has shown 8 of their cards, with the other 5 highly restricted in their placement. Yet transfers work well. Mostly it is simply a question of asking Opener if they have 2, 3 or 4-5 cards in the relevant suit. The same principle works rather nicely over a precision 2C opening too, whether that be a modern 6+ clubs or a traditional 5C-4M type.


View Poststraube, on 2010-October-18, 16:48, said:

Anyone feel that hiding the GF 5M/5 and the GF 6M hands in the 2D relay is unplayable?

I showed you already a way to make including the 5-5 GF 2-suiters possible within your opening franework. It is a matter of how you construct your relay system. If you prefer showing shortage then yes, it is best to take this hand out since you cannot find fits so easily. Unlike awm I think including the 6M hands into 2D is more difficult. If I only had room to take one of these hand types out of 2D then it would be the 1-suiters.


View Poststraube, on 2010-October-20, 19:40, said:

I have to admit that the FSJs don't seem to come up a lot in simulation. I do seem to come across the GI 5/5 hands and it's because of concern for not finding a fit and not having the 4th suit stopped that I kind of like having the ability to stop shy of game with these.

If I didn't need 3D as a sign off, I could use 3D, 3H, and 3S for the GF 5/5s. Or possibly these could break relay...

I am a little confused why you are worrying so much about your 5-5 GI hands when you seem to have a perfectly good way of handling these through your forcing 2M responses. If you are wanting to use the 3M responses for something other than FSJs then natural and game-forcing with a 6 card suit springs to mind as something obvious. Then your 5-5 GF hands must either relay or go via 2NT. Given your preferred relay structure the latter is probably better. We are now missing a GF hand with diamonds of course. I think I would need to see where you have gotten to to see where we might slide that in below 3NT - it might even be that that just is not possible without giving up something more important.
(-: Zel :-)
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#36 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 00:06

The latest...

2D-relay
.....2H-single-suited
..........2S-GF relay
..........2N-natural, invitational
..........3C-natural, invitational
..........3D-5/5, two lower
..........3H-5/5, upper and lower
..........3S-5/5, two higher
.....2S-4 diamonds, minimum
.....2N-4 diamonds maximum
.....3C-4 spades, minimum
.....etc-4 spades, maximum
2H-5H, f
.....2S-4 spades, minimum or medium
..........2N-12-13
..........3C-nf
..........3D-5D, GI
..........3H-6H, GI
..........3S-4S, GI
..........3N-to play
..........4D-splinter in support of clubs
.....2N-weak
.....3C-medium
.....3H-minimum
.....other-maximum, natural
2S-5S, f
.....2N-weak
..........P-12-13
..........3C-nf
..........3D-5D, GI
..........3H-5H, GI
..........3S-6S, GI
..........3N-to play
..........4D-splinter in support of clubs
..........4H-splinter in support of clubs
.....3C-medium
.....3S-minimum, fit
.....3L-maximum, natural
2N-constructive raise (fit)
3C-weak raise
3D-to play
3H-forcing with diamonds
3S-LR, forcing to 3N or 4C
3N-to play
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#37 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 00:50

Zelandakh,

Thanks for your post.

I'd be interested in seeing how you use transfers (continuations and such). I'm skeptical of them and list my reasons a little later.

I've used your idea for 2C-3S as a good club raise. Now 2C-2N is a constructive raise and 2C-3S is better in terms of points and fit.

If I'm using 2D to relay, then I'd rather focus on shortness. Your relay structure separates max/min and avoids the problem that we have with 7321s in knowing whether opener has 3-card support for responder's major. OTOH it loses clarity on opener's shortness which may be useful for slams and most important it is another thing we'd have to memorize (and we are up to our neck in relays).

I haven't seen how your transfer proposal would work, but I'm thinking that our 2C opening should be handled quite different from NT openings. Even NT openings use 2C (usually) as an asking bid and allowing 3 responses. It's only the next two bids that are transfers. I think it's very likely that our S1 should be a relay bid and not a transfer. Transfers over NT work well because opener is known to have tolerance for the suit and responder may big again to describe his shape to opener (who having a balanced hand is best placed to judge how the hands are meshing). Transfers over 2C have no assurance of a fit. Transfers also restrict sequence variety because opener will frequently have to just accept the transfer. I.e. transfers and puppets are costly in terms of sequence utilization. Finally, transfers describe responder's hand to opener; if opener is balanced well and good, but if opener is unbalanced, then it would have been much more efficient to have let opener complete his pattern.

I'm concerned about the 5/5 GI hands because having looked at some hands, they do seem to come up. If opener has a fit, they can be worth a lot. If opener doesn't, then even at the 3-level we may be too high. Frequently these 5/5s lack a stopper in the 4th suit so 3N may be unplayable. I think it's worth keeping the ability to stop at the 3-level with these.
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#38 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-25, 23:54

View Poststraube, on 2010-October-22, 00:50, said:

Zelandakh,

Thanks for your post.

I'd be interested in seeing how you use transfers (continuations and such). I'm skeptical of them and list my reasons a little later.

I've used your idea for 2C-3S as a good club raise. Now 2C-2N is a constructive raise and 2C-3S is better in terms of points and fit.

If I'm using 2D to relay, then I'd rather focus on shortness. Your relay structure separates max/min and avoids the problem that we have with 7321s in knowing whether opener has 3-card support for responder's major. OTOH it loses clarity on opener's shortness which may be useful for slams and most important it is another thing we'd have to memorize (and we are up to our neck in relays).

I haven't seen how your transfer proposal would work, but I'm thinking that our 2C opening should be handled quite different from NT openings. Even NT openings use 2C (usually) as an asking bid and allowing 3 responses. It's only the next two bids that are transfers. I think it's very likely that our S1 should be a relay bid and not a transfer. Transfers over NT work well because opener is known to have tolerance for the suit and responder may big again to describe his shape to opener (who having a balanced hand is best placed to judge how the hands are meshing). Transfers over 2C have no assurance of a fit. Transfers also restrict sequence variety because opener will frequently have to just accept the transfer. I.e. transfers and puppets are costly in terms of sequence utilization. Finally, transfers describe responder's hand to opener; if opener is balanced well and good, but if opener is unbalanced, then it would have been much more efficient to have let opener complete his pattern.

I'm concerned about the 5/5 GI hands because having looked at some hands, they do seem to come up. If opener has a fit, they can be worth a lot. If opener doesn't, then even at the 3-level we may be too high. Frequently these 5/5s lack a stopper in the 4th suit so 3N may be unplayable. I think it's worth keeping the ability to stop at the 3-level with these.


I gave the immediate responses further up but here's a more detailed run-through of what I use.

Over 2C (traditional precision shapes but 10-14 strength)
2D = 4+ hearts
2H = 4+ spades
2S = range ask
2N = 5 spades, 4 hearts, INV
3C = 3+ clubs, PRE
3D = sign-off
3H = 6+ diamonds, SI
3S = 3+ clubs, SI
3N = sign-off
4C = 4+ clubs, PRE
4D = puppet to 4H
4H = puppet to 4S


Over 2C - 2D
2H = 0-2 hearts (see below)
2S = 3 hearts, 4 spades (NB: therefore 4=3=1=5 or 4=3=0=6)
.....2N = 4 hearts, 0-3 spades, INV
.....3C = 4 hearts, 0-3 spades, 3+ clubs, INV
.....3D = puppet to 3H, 5+ hearts, weak or GF
.....3H = 5+ hearts, INV
.....3S = 4+ spades, INV
.....3N, 4S = sign-off
.....4C = 3+ clubs, SI
..........4D = decline slam try
...............4H = RKCB
..........4H = accept slam try, 1 or 4 key cards
..........4S = accept slam try, 0 or 3 key cards
..........4N = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards without CQ
..........5C = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards with CQ
.....4D = 6+ diamonds, SI
.....4H = slam try agreeing spades
..........4S = decline slam try
...............4N = RKCB
..........4N = accept slam try, diamond void
...............5C = RKCB
..........5C = accept slam try, 4=3=1=5, 1 or 4 key cards
..........5D = accept slam try, 4=3=1=5, 0 or 3 key cards
..........5H = accept slam try, 4=3=1=5, 2 or 5 key cards without SQ
..........5S = accept slam try, 4=3=1=5, 2 or 5 key cards with SQ
.....4N = INV
2N = 3 hearts, 0-3 spades, min
.....3C = 4 hearts, 2+ clubs, SO
.....3D = puppet to 3H, 5+ hearts, weak or GF [after 3H: denial cues, frivolous 3NT]
.....3H = 5+ hearts, INV
.....3S = 5+ spades, GF
3C = 3 hearts, 0-3 spades, max
.....3D = puppet to 3H, 5+ hearts, weak or GF [after 3H: denial cues, frivolous 3NT]
.....3H = 5+ hearts, INV
.....3S = 5+ spades, GF
.....3N/4S = sign-off
.....4C = 3+ clubs, SI
..........4D = decline slam try
...............4H = RKCB
..........4H = accept slam try, 1 or 4 key cards
..........4S = accept slam try, 0 or 3 key cards
..........4N = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards without CQ
..........5C = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards with CQ
.....4D = 5+ hearts, 0-1 diamonds
.....4N = INV
3D = 4 hearts, min
.....3H = sign-off
.....3S, 4m = denial cue
.....3N = slam try
.....4S = RKCB
3H = 4 hearts, max
.....3S, 4m = denial cue
.....3N = slam try
.....4S = RKCB


Over 2C - 2D / 2H
2S = 4+ spades, F1
.....2N = 0-3 spades, min
..........3C = sign-off
..........3D = checkback
...............3H = 2 hearts
...............3S = 3 spades
...............3N = diamond stop
..........3H = 6+ hearts, GF
..........3S = 5+ spades, GF
..........3N = to play
..........4C = 3+ clubs, SI
.....3C = 0-3 spades, max
..........3D = checkback
...............3H = 2 hearts
...............3S = 3 spades
...............3N = diamond stop
..........3H = 6+ hearts, GF
..........3S = 5+ spades, GF
..........3N = to play
..........4C = 3+ clubs, SI
.....3D, 3H = 4 spades, splinter
.....3S = 4 spades, min
.....3N = 4 spades, max
2N = 0-3 spades, INV
3C = 3+ clubs, INV
3D = 5+ diamonds, GF
3H = 6+ hearts, INV
3S = 6+ hearts, 0-1 spades, GF
4C = 3+ clubs, SI+
4D = 6+ hearts, 0-1 diamonds, GF
4H = mild slam try
4S = RKCB [unnecessary because of 2C - 4D - 4H - 4S]
4N = INV


Over 2C - 2H
2S = 0-2 spades
.....2N = INV
.....3C = 3+ clubs, INV
.....3D = 5+ diamonds, GF
.....3H = 5+ hearts, INV
.....3S = 6+ spades, INV
.....3N = sign-off
.....4C = 3+ clubs, SI+
.....4D = 6+ spades, 0-1 diamonds, GF
.....4H = 6+ spades, 0-1 hearts, GF
.....4S = mild slam try
.....4N = INV
2N = 3 spades, min
.....3C = 4 spades, 3+ clubs, SO
.....3D = 5+ diamonds, SI
.....3H = puppet to 3S, 5+ spades, weak or GF [after 3S: denial cues, frivolous 3NT]
.....3S = 5+ spades, INV
.....3N = to play
.....4C = 3+ clubs, SI
..........4D = decline slam try
...............4H = RKCB
..........4H = accept slam try, 1 or 4 key cards
..........4S = accept slam try, 0 or 3 key cards
..........4N = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards without CQ
..........5C = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards with CQ
.....4D = 6+ diamonds, SI
.....4S = mild slam try
3C = 3 spades, max
.....3D = 5+ diamonds, SI
.....3H = puppet to 3S, 5+ spades, weak or GF [after 3S: denial cues, frivolous 3NT]
.....3S = 5+ spades, INV
.....3N = to play
.....4C = 3+ clubs, SI
..........4D = decline slam try
...............4H = RKCB
..........4H = accept slam try, 1 or 4 key cards
..........4S = accept slam try, 0 or 3 key cards
..........4N = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards without CQ
..........5C = accept slam try, 2 or 5 key cards with CQ
.....4D = 6+ diamonds, SI
.....4S = mild slam try
3D = 4 spades, min
.....3H = puppet to 3S, 5+ spades, weak or GF [after 3S: denial cues, frivolous 3NT]
.....3S = INV
.....3N = side void, SI
..........4C = asks for the void
...............4D/H = void in suit bid
...............4S = club void
.....4C = 3+ clubs, SI
.....4D/H = 5+ spades, singleton in suit bid, SI
.....4S = mild slam try
3S = 4 spades, max
.....3N = slam try
.....4m, 4H = denial cue
.....4N = RKCB


Over 2C - 2S
2N = min
.....3C = SO
.....3D/H/S = stop ask
3C = max
.....3D/H/S = stop ask


Over 2C - 3H
3S = diamond fit, decline of slam try
3N = no diamond fit
4D = diamond fit, accept slam try


Over 2C - 3S
3N = decline slam try
4C = accept slam try


That is everything - probably alot more detail than you would ever want. Notice also that 5S-4H GF hands start with 2D, not 2H, to facilitate the correct information exchange. This is clearly different from Jacoby transfers and illustrates the point about Opener providing the information even though it seems to be coming from Responder. Another point about this is that 2C can be 5C - 4M which means that it can hold far more hand types than your 2C opening. That means that full shape relays would simply not be possible below 3NT.

Now onto your system. The reason i am asking about the worries on GI hands is that your forcing 2M responses seem to cover all of these possibilities. The only GI hands that seem to go through 2D now are invitational club raises and a natural 2NT bid. What I am wondering here is if it is not possible to make the 2D relay a full game force. The first of these hands can easily be handled through 2NT - simialr arguments can be used here as for the competitive auctions discussed in another thread. The problem is the natural balanced invite and there just is not a suitable alternative.

Finally a little discussion about relays based on shortness (symmetric) and based on fragments. To some extent these approaches are interchangeable - the former is better at recognising a slam early, the latter is better at finding fits quickly. The only time this matters is when the shape resolution goes above 3NT. For example, with 7321 hands you can either find out by 3NT what the 3 card suit is or what the singleton is in addition to the 7 clubs. To get the full picture requires a relay above 3NT. The question is simply which information is more important to get before you need to commit. My (strong) belief is that the fit is more important to locate. That is why I use a fragment based relay approach throughout the system. It has exactly the same information capacity as the shortness method, it simply transfers the information in a different order.

An example of this from a more traditional point

1C - 1H (4+ spades)
1S - 2D (1-suited)
2H - 2S (3 hearts, 6-7 spades) [2N is 3 clubs, 3C is 3 diamonds, 3D is 8+ spades and 0-1 hearts, 3H is 8+ spades and 0-1 diamonds, 3S is 7=2=2=2, 3N is 8+ spades and 0-1 clubs, min]
2N - 3S (7=3=1=2) [3C would show 3 diamonds, 3D is 3 clubs, 3H is 6=3=2=2]

The symmetric relay auction is identical except that you first show a middle shortage and then show the relative lengths of the other 3 suits.

Now with your 2C opening the relays have to start much higher than in standard symmetric and this is why full shape resolution is difficult. If you could make 2D GF it would be possible to start the 1-suited relays at 2NT (1 step higher than standard) which would significantly reduce the difficulties. But I do not see how to achieve this so you are probably stuck with starting at an uncomfortably high level.

One final note on your current structure. You have
2C - 2D - 2H - 3D = diamonds and hearts
2C - 2D - 2H - 3H = diamonds and spades
2C - 2D - 2H - 3S = hearts and spades

It seems to me much more efficient to switch the meanings of 3D and 3S to enable Opener to indicate a fit in either major at the 3 level.

I hope the bidding notes have managed to survive the forum editing intact. It was really quite difficult to do due to the characteristics of the forums. First of all no tabs, and secondly every time I tried to edit something the edit window would jump to a completely unrelated point in the message. So most of it was done completely blind. Anything that does not make sense just ask and I will correct it.
(-: Zel :-)
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#39 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-26, 01:11

I'm really impressed. It appears we can eat our cake and have it, too.

Our opening denies four hearts so 2C-2D could be the start of a GF relay or some hand with 5 hearts. That means we get 2H as a transfer, etc. I guess the obvious downsides are that 1) partner won't know we're in a GF immediately and 2) we have to learn a new and perhaps better relay structure.

It's getting late and tomorrow looks busy, but I'll definitely have to think this over.

Very elegant structure. Thanks a lot.
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#40 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-26, 01:26

Oh that is potentially really quite clever. Because of your restricted opening you never need the responses with 4 hearts over 2D and you might indeed be able to build a relay structure from that. I suspect it might get a little complex in practise but it is definitely worth looking into and is a very interesting way of using the specific shape restriction in your 2C opening. It is definitely too late/early to think about now though. I might come back in a few days if I get a chance, or if not will just look at your idea and look for anything obvious.
(-: Zel :-)
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