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our 2C structure

#41 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-26, 13:10

I've rigged something up very quick and dirty to get an idea of the amount of information space available under this idea. Hopefully I didn't miss any hand shapes! The relay structure leaves lots to be desired but that can be ironed out to match what is used elsewhere in your system. The important thing is whether the information you can fit into the space below 3NT is useful enough to take the time optimising the concept.

2C = 6+ clubs, 0-4 spades, 0-3 hearts, 0-4 diamonds
---------------------------------------------------
2D = 5+ hearts, weak/INV; or any GF
.....2H = 0-2 hearts; 6 clubs or any 7321
..........3C = sign-off
..........3D = puppet to 3H (weak/strong)
..........3H = 6+ hearts, INV
..........2S = relay
...............2N = 1-2 spades
....................3C = relay
.........................3D = singleton spade, 2 hearts
..............................3H = relay
...................................3S = 1=2=4=6
...................................3N = 1=2=3=7
.........................3H = 2=2=3=6
.........................3S = 2=1=4=6
.........................3N = 2=1=3=7
...............3C = 3 spades, 0-1 hearts
....................3D = relay
.........................3H = 3=0=4=6
.........................3S = 3=1=3=6
.........................3N = 3=1=2=7
...............3D = 3 spades, 2 hearts
....................3H = relay
.........................3S = 3=2=2=6
.........................3N = 3=2=1=7
...............3H = 4=0=3=6
...............3S = 4=1=2=6
...............3N = 4=2=1=6
.....2S = 0-2 hearts, 7+ clubs and not 7321
..........3C = sign-off
..........3D = puppet to 3H (weak/strong)
..........3H = 6+ hearts, INV
..........2N = relay
...............3C = 0-1 spades
....................3D = relay
.........................3H = 8+ clubs
..............................3S = relay
...................................3N = singleton spade
...................................4C = spade void
.........................3S = 1=1=4=7
.........................3N = 4 diamonds, spade void (0247 and more extreme)
...............3D = heart void
....................3H = relay
.........................3S = 3=0=3=7
.........................3N = 4 diamonds (2047 and more extreme)
.........................4C = 4 spades (4027 and more extreme)
...............3D = 8+ clubs, 0-1 hearts
....................3H = relay
.........................3S = singleton heart
.........................3N = heart void
...............3H = 4 spades, 0-1 diamonds
....................3S = relay
.........................3N = 4=1=1=7
.........................4C = diamond void (4207 and more extreme)
...............3S = 2=2=2=7
...............3N = 8+ clubs, 0-1 diamonds
....................4C = relay
.........................4D = 2218
.........................4H = 3208+
.....2N = 3 hearts, 0-2 spades, 1-3 diamonds, 6-7 clubs
..........3D = puppet to 3H (weak/strong)
..........3H = 5+ hearts, INV
..........3C = relay
...............3D = 3 diamonds
....................3H = relay
.........................3S = 1=3=3=6
.........................3N = 0=3=3=7
...............3H = 2=3=2=6
...............3S = 1=3=2=7
...............3N = 2=3=1=7
.....3C = 3 hearts, 3-4 spades, 6-7 clubs
..........3H = sign-off (no space for an invite here)
..........3D = relay
...............3H = 3=3=1=6
...............3S = 3=3=0=7
...............3N = 4=3=0=6
.....3D = 0=3=4=6, min
..........3H = sign-off
..........3S = relay
.....3H = 0=3=4=6, max
..........3S = relay
2H = 4+ spades
2S = range ask (natural NT invite or 5+ hearts and invitational)
.....2N = min
..........3C = sign-off
..........3D = red 2-suiter
..........3H = 6+ hearts, NF
.....3C = max, 0-2 hearts
..........3D = red 2-suiter
..........3H = 6+ hearts, GF
.....3H = max, 3 hearts
2N = good club raise
3C = weak raise
3D = sign-off
(-: Zel :-)
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#42 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-26, 13:42

Great call putting the misfitting 7C hands into 2C-2D, 2S. I'd noticed that a 2H rebid could not handle all of the hand types lacking 3 hearts.

This seems like the winningest structure for 2C. I wonder about the best method for organization so as to remember it. Also, we are still a bit tight for space and I would like to give up on the xxx8 hands.

Nice that the 7321 residues are distinguished (ours currently doesn't do this).
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#43 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-October-26, 16:36

It may be worth commenting that at some point Sam and I developed a transfer-based structure not too different from Zelandakh's... although it was a bit more focused on identifying stoppers for notrump rather than identifying opener's exact shape (especially on hands where opener has 8+ clubs etc).

In any case, we decided that this was better than the relay-oriented approach, but then scrapped it from our system anyway. The main issue was that it was an awful lot of stuff to remember for an auction that came up rarely and provided only a small marginal benefit. It bore no significant resemblance to anything else in our methods, so there were no "shortcuts" to remembering it better. The relay-based method is similar to symmetric relay (which we play in a lot of other auctions) so much less memory-intensive.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#44 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-27, 09:43

View Postawm, on 2010-October-26, 16:36, said:

It may be worth commenting that at some point Sam and I developed a transfer-based structure not too different from Zelandakh's... although it was a bit more focused on identifying stoppers for notrump rather than identifying opener's exact shape (especially on hands where opener has 8+ clubs etc).

In any case, we decided that this was better than the relay-oriented approach, but then scrapped it from our system anyway. The main issue was that it was an awful lot of stuff to remember for an auction that came up rarely and provided only a small marginal benefit. It bore no significant resemblance to anything else in our methods, so there were no "shortcuts" to remembering it better. The relay-based method is similar to symmetric relay (which we play in a lot of other auctions) so much less memory-intensive.


Yeah, I'd have trouble remembering it and I have just a touch of concern about interference. But it's very well put together. It would let us relay and correct to a major when responder has a major suit bust. I've never seen a structure that could do both of those things at the same time.
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#45 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-27, 11:05

Zelandakh and awm, how is this for memorability?

2C-2D,
.....2H-heart shortness
..........2S-relays
...............2N-SS
....................3D-3136
....................3H-2137
.....................3S-3127
.....................3N-3037
................3C-diamonds
.....................3H-2146
.....................3S-3046
.....................3N-2147
.....................4C-1147
................3D-4126
................3H-4036
................3S-4027
................3N-4117

.....2S-heart doubleton
..........2N-relays
...............3C-SS, bal
....................3D-relays
.........................3H-2236
..........................3S-3226
.........................3N-2227
...............3D-SS, unbal
....................3H-relays
.........................3S-1237
.........................3S-3217
...............3H-four diamonds
....................3S-relays
.........................3N-1246
.........................4C-0247
...............3S-4216
...............3N-4207

.....2N-3 hearts, higher
...............3C-relays
....................3D-1-3-3-6
....................3H-1-3-2-7
....................3S-0-3-3-7
.....3C-3 hearts, lower
..........3D-relays
....................3H-3-3-1-6
....................3S-2-3-1-7
....................3N-3-3-0-7
.....3D-0-3-4-6
.....3H-2-3-2-6 (10-13)
.....3S-4-3-0-6
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#46 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-27, 22:53

If this is the structure you prefer and is easier for you to remember then this is definitely the way to go. My relays weren't designed for ease of memory since what I would come up with would anyway not match your system and mainly I was interested in the amount of information exchange since that is the key point before optimising. Now on yours I noticed a small point that might be improved:-
2C-2D,
.....2H-heart shortness
..........2S-relays
...............2N-3 spades and/or 2-3 diamonds [3C-relays]
....................3D-3136 or 3046 <-----
.........................3H-relays
..............................3S-3136
..............................3N-3046
....................3H-2137
.....................3S-3127
.....................3N-3037
................3C-4 diamonds, <3 spades
.....................3H-2146
.....................3S-2047 <-----are these 2 shapes the correct way round?
.....................3N-1147 <-----you tend to split by balance and this seems to go against your rule

...has a small advantage in keeping all hands at 3NT or below. It is arguably more important to show the (2)3 spades than the 4 diamonds at this stage too.

The other thing I do not like is that you have gone above 3H in the initial rebid. I think this is dangerous if you are going to allow Responder to bid 2D with a bust and long hearts. Perhaps you could move the 0346 hand into the high shortage response with:-
.....2N-3 hearts, higher
...............3C-relays
....................3D-1-3-3-6/0-3-4-6 <-----
.........................3H-relays
..............................3S-1-3-3-6
..............................3N-0-3-4-6
....................3H-1-3-2-7
....................3S-0-3-3-7
.....3C-3 hearts, lower
..........3D-relays
....................3H-3-3-1-6
....................3S-2-3-1-7
....................3N-3-3-0-7
.....3D-2-3-2-6
.....3H-4-3-0-6

You could also make 3H 3316/3307 (going above 3NT on the follow-up relay ask but on very similar hand types) and move 4306 into the heart shortage section:-
.....3C-3 hearts, lower
..........3D-relays
....................3H-3-3-1-6/3-3-0-7
.........................3S-relays
..............................3N-3-3-1-6
..............................4C-3-3-0-7
....................3S-2-3-1-7
....................3N-4-3-0-6
.....3D-2-3-2-6, min
.....3H-2-3-2-6, max

Aside from that, all I can see is that you have lost some clarity on the freak hands but that is not a big deal. One final idea that might be even easier to remember would be to use spade length as your distinguisher for the heart doubleton line:-
.....2S-heart doubleton
..........2N-relays
...............3C-0-1 spades
....................3D-relays
.........................3H-1246
..........................3S-1237
.........................3N-0247
...............3D-2 spades
....................3H-relays
.........................3S-2236
.........................3N-2227
...............3H-3 spades
....................3S-relays
.........................3N-3226
.........................4C-3217
...............3S-4216
...............3N-4207

Again, only you can make the judgement as to what is more logical and what matches the rest of your system best. Just on a technical point in the above - it is actually better to switch the 3D and 3H bids since the difference between 2236/2227 is 'less' than between 3226/3217 and so you would prefer to have the former as the hand type that spills above 3NT. However it then becomes much more difficult to remember so (personally) I would lose the optimisation here.

Anyway, nice job. You might be close to something that is ready to be run through some testing. My suggestion at this stage would be to generate a lot of hands and to bid each of them using all of the different structures you have. Get a feel for which is most accurate and which gives the easiest decision-making for the way your mind works. Then do the same but adding in various levels of interference and see if your preferred method has a problem. It is only by such a practical approach that you can turn these lovely theoretical discussions into a working bidding system. Of course, once you have it fully optimised (and memorised) you have to take the biggest test of all and play it against live opps. At least that is the way I do it.
(-: Zel :-)
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#47 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-27, 23:19

While I was checking through my last post I also noticed another option for follow-ups with the 0-1 heart hands that looks interesting and might also be good for memory, namely splitting by heart length:-
2C-2D,
.....2H-heart shortness
..........2S-relays
...............2N-1 heart [3C-relays]
....................3D-3 spades
.........................3H-relays
..............................3S-3136
..............................3N-3127
....................3H-2146
.....................3S-2137
.....................3N-1147
................3C-heart void
.....................3H-3046
.....................3S-3037
.....................3N-2047

Just another option. Ideally you would have a single rule that worked for all cases - split by heart length, then by spade length. Or split by high-low shortage. Or whatever. At this stage it's probably best for you to work through the options and details with your partner on what is easiest and then move onto tests as above. Fun though it is for me to play around with this... :)
(-: Zel :-)
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#48 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-October-28, 10:09

Yeah, that 2C-2D, 3S is a weakness.

I'm less bothered by the spillovers past 3N because it only happens after responder has discovered heart shortness and four diamonds and gives opener permission to show his exact pattern. I.e. responder must have slam interest at that point to bother asking.

I think it's right to immediately separate short hearts from two because this allows responder to 1) play 6-1 heart fits at the 2-level and 2) sign off or invite with 6-2 (or even 5-2) heart fits at the 3-level.

Partner isn't jazzed about memorizing this though.
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#49 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-November-03, 20:41

I'm envisioning responder only replying with something like 9 hcps and a 6cd major when not fitting clubs. After all, this pushes us to the 3-level whenever a doubleton is found. I'm declining to introduce a 4-cd spade suit as well.

2C structure

2D-5+ hearts or GF relay
.....2H-0 or 1 heart
..........2N-four diamonds
..........3C-single-suited
..........3D etc-4126, 4036, 4027, 4117
.....2S-2 hearts
..........3C-bal
..........3D-four diamonds
..........3H-1237, 3127
..........3S etc-4216, 4207
.....2N-3 hearts, higher shortness
.....3C-3 hearts, higher shortness
.....3D-0346
.....3H-2326
.....3S-4306

when 3D is available as a relay break, it shows a sign off or GF in hearts, then 3H (instead of 3D) shows a GI in hearts

2H-5+ spades, not GF unless prepared game bid
.....2S-0-1 spades
..........2N-inv
..........3C-constructive
..........3D-GI, 5D
..........3H-GI, 5H
..........3S-GI, 6S
......2N-2 spades, strong
......3C-2 spades, weak
......3D-3 spades, strong
......3H-3 spades, medium
......3S-3 spades, weak

2S-invitational, artificial, not necessarily club fit
.....natural
2N-constructive raise
3C-preemptive raise
3D-to play
3H-forcing, diamonds
3S-LR clubs
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#50 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-03, 22:39

Looks fine. The main issue will be stopper asks and perhaps the red 2-suiter. You will have to find out in play-testing if these are a problem in practise. If they are then you might need to restructure your 2S response to compensate. Otherwise, I hope your partner is not too upset with my input...and good luck!
(-: Zel :-)
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#51 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-November-04, 00:08

Cool. Thanks for all of your help.
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