[Coelacanth]

I'm interested in people's opinion of the final double in this sequence:

P - (P) - 1♠ - (2♣)
X - (3♣) - X

First double was negative. This pair does not play responsive doubles (not that this double would qualify as one anyway).

If it matters, this is matchpoints, with the spade bidder NV against V.

Absent any special agreement, what hand type would you expect for this double?

[ArtK78]

I expect 4 good clubs. This is a penalty double, plain and simple. It is not strength showing or anything exotic.

[gwnn]

I would never play double as penalty.

it's not unlike

1♥-p-1♠-3♣
x

except in the auction posted first responder promised marginally more values and opener is much less unlikely to have a trump stack.

I'd treat this X as "looking for a club stop" or "balanced maximum without 4 hearts" which are very close.

[mich-b]

Strong hand without a clear direction.

Possible hands are 5332 (18-19, or if you would not open 1NT then 15-17 as well),
strongish 5341, 6241 (that is not sure if ♦ or ♠ could be the best strain).

[helene_t]

If you don't play responsive doubles, this double is probably penalty, too.

I would play it as something like 5332 with 18-19 points, though.

[ArtK78]

No one plays penalty doubles anymore. Pity.

Responder has already promised values and the unbid suits (or at least one of them). There is no reason to play opener's double as values without a clear action. If he doesn't have a clear action at this point, he never will.

If you mean to say that he has the values to bid 3NT but no club stop, that is an entirely different matter. That hand is difficult to bid. If you want to give up what might be a juicy penalty double and bid 3NT when you have clubs, fine. But saying that you don't know where to go with the hand cannot be accurate.

[aguahombre]

"No one plays penalty doubles anymore. Pity."

so true. This nobody plays this double as a strong suggestion of penalty. Partner gets to overrule with the appropriate hand(s)

[Coelacanth]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

I was the 2♣ bidder on this auction. My original thought at the table was that this was a pure penalty double, a strong 5224 or the like. I immediately realized that such a hand was very unlikely, as I held six clubs and my passed-hand partner just raised me to the three level. So I figured the doubler was 5233 or so with a full opener and a sure club trick.

Her actual hand turned out to be 6331, with a small singleton club and about 13 HCP. Fortunately for her, her partner was 3442 and bid 3♠, which she raised to four. I must admit her double was sound tactics, as it dissuaded me from bidding 5♣ which was cold. However, if her partner had instead held 2452 and passed the double (as who would not, with his ♣Kx?), I would have been booked for two doubled vulnerable overtricks.

Oh well. We defeated 4♠ two tricks for about a 20% board. Making 5♣ for +600 would have been about 80%.

[Cascade]

If they don't play responsive doubles then this should be penalties.

That doesn't however seem a very useful agreement sitting under the primary club bidder when the opponents have bid and raised.

It is a good idea to play takeout doubles when the opponents bid and raise. I would want to have more fully described my hand before starting to play penalty doubles in these type of situations.

[peachy]

Opener has extras, most likely balanced, no 4-card hearts, and no clear action to take. For me this is a type of "cards" double, more leaning toward penalty, definitely not takeout oriented. Responder can do as he wishes, often pass.

[Fluffy]

take out and he could have a long variety of hands. even 7 spades and 4 hearts. More or less what mich-b said.

[ArtK78]

Pardon me if I rant.

Many of the posters in this thread claim that the second double is for takeout, or, if not specifically for takeout, then it shows extras with no clear action or no clear direction.

I just wonder how far this can go on. Responder has already made a "takeout" double (a negative double is a takeout double). Now opener is making a "takeout" double. When is someone going to bid a suit? If the overcaller were to bid 4♣ over the second double, would a double by the negative doubler be for penalties? Or would it be a similar "I have stuff but nothing to bid" double? Let us assume that the negative doubler were 2-4-4-3 with extras but only 3 small clubs. Suppose the negative doubler was not a passed hand and his upper limit were higher than it is in this problem. Where does the double stop being a "warm and fuzzy" bid and start meaining something specific?

I understand that this may be a reasonable treatment for the double. But, at the very least, if this is the understanding of the partnership, it should be alerted, as the "standard" meaning for this double would be penalties. Apparently, at the table, this double was not alerted.

[Fluffy]

1♣-x-2♣-x (takeout, takeout)
3♣-x-4♣-x (takeout, takeout)
5♣-x-6♣-X (takeout, penalty)


I think at 6 clubs it is finally penalty, but some might argue that this is at 7


just joking Art, I don't think it is ever penalty, it is not much better but it is easier to remember.

[Coelacanth]

ArtK78, on Aug 18 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

But, at the very least, if this is the understanding of the partnership, it should be alerted, as the "standard" meaning for this double would be penalties.  Apparently, at the table, this double was not alerted.

Yeah, that's why I posted this in this forum. I was trying to get at the question "absent any specific agreement otherwise (which would be alertable), what is the 'standard' meaning of this double?"

Given the absense of an alert, I just wanted to validate that I was not insane for thinking my RHO had club values on this auction.

On reflection, I probably should have asked LHO, but I'm almost certain the answer would have been "no agreement", so I would be stuck with the same guess as to RHO's hand type.

Oh well.

[655321]

This is definitely not a penalty double for me. Takeout, extra values, no clear bid.

Partner has not made a takeout double. Partner has made a negative double, showing 4 hearts and the values to compete. He might have 5 hearts but not enough strength to bid 2♥. He might have a balanced hand with good clubs, when he will be delighted to pass the double.

If double is reserved for the astonishingly rare 18 count with 4 good clubs then you have no way to bid the much more common hands - 5341 and extra values, etc.

[helene_t]

ArtK78, on Aug 18 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

But, at the very least, if this is the understanding of the partnership, it should be alerted, as the "standard" meaning for this double would be penalties. Apparently, at the table, this double was not alerted.

Lol, most experts don't play this as penalty, most non-experts will have no agreement and/or not know if it's alertable.

FWIW in EBU-land you would have to alert this double if it's penalty. Not that I would expect anyone to do that.

[cherdanno]

Coelacanth, on Aug 18 2009, 09:30 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Aug 18 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

But, at the very least, if this is the understanding of the partnership, it should be alerted, as the "standard" meaning for this double would be penalties.  Apparently, at the table, this double was not alerted.

Yeah, that's why I posted this in this forum. I was trying to get at the question "absent any specific agreement otherwise (which would be alertable), what is the 'standard' meaning of this double?"

If opponents are good, you can be almost certain that double is takeout. If opponents are bad, they probably don't know either

[RichMor]

peachy, on Aug 18 2009, 12:55 AM, said:

Opener has extras, most likely balanced, no 4-card hearts, and no clear action to take.  For me this is a type of "cards" double, more leaning toward penalty, definitely not takeout oriented.  Responder can do as he wishes, often pass.

That's exactly how I would play it. A pure penalty double is unlikely when the opps are sane. A pure takeout double is more likely but not that useful, opener can just bid something.

RichM

[ArtK78]

655321, on Aug 18 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

If double is reserved for the astonishingly rare 18 count with 4 good clubs then you have no way to bid the much more common hands - 5341 and extra values, etc.

If the double is for penalties, it could be a 12 count with four good clubs. It could be a better hand with lesser clubs. All I am saying is that it doesn't have to be another takeout double.

Clearly, 30 years ago, no one would have considered the double of 3♣ to be anything other than a penalty double. That doesn't mean it has to be 18 HCP and four good clubs.

Now you may decide that a hand with extras and no obvious action is more common than ANY hand with good clubs. I am not so sure. Partner made a negative double, which is often short in clubs. The original 1♠ bidder could have length in clubs. I do not think it is that infrequent that the opening bidder could have a penalty double on this auction.

[Phil]

Fluffy, on Aug 18 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

5♣-x-6♣-X (takeout, penalty)

I think at 6 clubs it is finally penalty, but some might argue that this is at 7

In one partnership, we play responsive doubles through 7♥.

It hasn't come up yet.