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Fishy? hot topic here :)

Poll: You be the judge (41 member(s) have cast votes)

You be the judge

  1. 1. The table result stands (38 votes [92.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.68%

  2. 2. Adjust N-S score to avg-, E-W to avg+. because ... (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 3. Kick N-S's asses out, because ... (1 votes [2.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.44%

  4. 4. Ban N-S forever from the tourney, because ... (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. 5. Other decisions... (2 votes [4.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.88%

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#21 User is offline   LH2650 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 07:31

Fishy. Very fishy. Your judgement is a little too good for your own good. There is no basis for an adjustment on the facts presented, but in the ACBL, the auction would certainly be referred to the Recorder. Of course, no one would never say that you are under suspicion of cheating, but a few Recorder memos would get you intense scrutiny.

Once you start Alerting your notrump as possibly containing a singleton, you will get a score adjustment (ACBL) because that agreement is illegal.

I would have bid the hands 1D - 1S - 2C - 2S - 2N - 3N. Some may not like it, but at least I would not find myself dealing with directors, committees, and recorders.
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#22 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 07:40

Some players just can't see the need to open a hand containing a singleton 1NT. You can offer viable reasons, but, like a old car the reasonable aspect of the bid just doesn't start every day.

The TD should be punished is one of the ratings the poster forgot to include.

It's interesting to note that when a person makes a reverse for example with 12 or 13 HCP it is sluffed off as, "they do not know what they are doing" and a result that ends up favorable to them is not reversed. I wonder if the fact they have nothing that resembles the bid would fnd this director reversing the score? Best is just not to play in this directors game.
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#23 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 07:46

LH2650, on Sep 6 2005, 09:31 AM, said:

Once you start Alerting your notrump as possibly containing a singleton, you will get a score adjustment (ACBL) because that agreement is illegal.

Really? Are you certain of this. Let me quote the very first item on the General Convention chart (last part of Definition 1).

"A notrump opening or overcall is natural if not unbalanced (generally, no singleton or void and only one or two doubletons"

Now Generally here is meant to modify the "requirement" of no singleton or void and only one or two doubletons. This suggest that it is possible to open or overcall a natural notrump with not only a singleton but also a void as long as this is not your "general" practice. Surely it is standard these days for some 4441 patterns to be opened 1NT, and some 5431's as in this case. Many of have witnessed top players doing this in ACBL events without adjustment.

So what are you suggesting. You can "pick out" the occassional hand to do this on and not alert it with impunity, or you can alter that your agreement is that some 5422 and some 4441 and 4531 hands can be opened 1NT. In the first case (no warning to opponents), no harm no foul, in the second case "automatic" adjustment.

What is wrong with this picture? Anyway, could you please quote chapter and verse where "semi-balanced hands" unsuited for a different opening bid can not be opened 1NT, or if you do this (by solid agreement or just by history), you will be automatically adjusted if you do?
--Ben--

#24 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 07:48

There are a whole range of different issues here, each of which could lead to a different final result.

1. Were the tourney rules clearly stated, and did they say that opening 1NT with a singleton was not allowed? If so, then ave+/ave- is the correct ruling (in so far as one can say what a "correct" ruling is for a game that isn't bridge), and if you don't like playing with these rules, don't play in this tournament.

2. Did you and your partner have an agreement that opening 1NT on a singleton was permitted? If so, is that alertable under whatever alerting regulations the tournament was being played? (It is in England, for example). If so, your opponents have been misinformed. Have they been damaged? I don't think so. The spade lead is insane anyway, but it is more tempting rather than less tempting if declarer could have a singleton spade. You could be given a procedural penalty for not alerting, but the score on the actual board stands.

3. Whatever you say under (2) the TD may suspect that bidding 3NT rather than 4S suggested that your partner thought you could have a singleton spade, or that your partner already knew the hand. But so what? Suspicion isn't proof. All the TD can do is make a note of who you are, and perhaps see if you have a record e.g. of bidding 3NT opposite a singleton spade but 4S when partner has more support. But this looks a bit obscure to me: if your partner knew you had a singleton, why not just raise 1NT to 3NT? Anyway, the table result still stands.
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#25 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 09:01

Judgement is a two-edged sword. (Like luck, it can be good and bad.) Even if there was collusion, (seems unlikely unless they took 2 minutes to evaluate how the hand might play during the bidding, or could see all 4 hands) this time their judgement and play won. <_< Next time, who knows. :D

I like playing against the "creative" types, as it sharpens my acumen as well as getting you better results over the long term. :)
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#26 User is offline   LH2650 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 12:08

inquiry, on Sep 6 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

LH2650, on Sep 6 2005, 09:31 AM, said:

Once you start Alerting your notrump as possibly containing a singleton, you will get a score adjustment (ACBL) because that agreement is illegal.

Really? Are you certain of this. Let me quote the very first item on the General Convention chart (last part of Definition 1).


The ACBL policy may be found in the Club Director's Handbook, or at http://www.acbl.org/...aSingleton.html
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#27 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 13:34

helene_t, on Sep 6 2005, 10:45 PM, said:

"Willingness to play" is a strange expression. With what kind of hand would you not be willing to play in notrumps?

I am not completely sure what willingness to play means but it seems to me if one of your primary purposes in open 1NT is to suggest NTs as a final strain then this certainly makes the bid non-conventional.

On the other hand if your 1NT bid shows something specific like "both majors" for example then although there may be some "willingness to play" NTs it is severely diminished compared with a bid whose primarly purpose is to show a reasonably balanced hand offering NTs as a possible strain.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#28 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2005-September-06, 13:45

inquiry, on Sep 7 2005, 01:46 AM, said:

"A notrump opening or overcall is natural if not unbalanced (generally, no singleton or void and only one or two doubletons"

Now Generally here is meant to modify the "requirement" of no singleton or void and only one or two doubletons. This suggest that it is possible to open or overcall a natural notrump with not only a singleton but also a void as long as this is not your "general" practice. Surely it is standard these days for some 4441 patterns to be opened 1NT, and some 5431's as in this case. Many of have witnessed top players doing this in ACBL events without adjustment.

The ACBL seem to have ruled that 1% is the threshold for opening 1NT with a singleton

ACBL - NT with a Singleton
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

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