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Dealing with a very high level preempt...

#21 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2003-September-09, 13:01

Quote

Sorry to reiterate this point but 5NT=choice of slams seems to cover hands that want to offer partner a choice of spades or clubs at the 6 level and is consistent with the notion that a choice of strains is more important than a choice of levels in these situations.

Perhaps this issue of 5NT and bids of opponents suits at the 6 level would make a fruitful seperate posting.

(If pass is forcing the of course you have all these delayed 5NT and cuebid auctions aswell).

Ian


5NT offering a choice would be great if partner knew what he was choosing between. That is, I use a quick bid of 5NT frequently as pick a slam, choosing a slow approach clearly establishing trumps when I want it to be grand slam force. Here, of course, the slow approach has been taken away from you, so the geneneral rule of 5NT as pickem would best apply. But there are two unbid suits (hearts and clubs). So to offer 5NT as a pickem is a little risky, although partner having the master suit makes it not that risky. As long as both you and partner understand that 5NT is pick between some unbid suit and spades. After all, spades is the master suit. But what if partner thinks it is pick between the two unbids suits, say you are 1-6-0-6 for instance, and picks one when you belong in spades because you are 2-4-0-6 and he picks hearts on a three card suit?

Also, imagine an auction that goes... 1C-(5D)-5NT for instance. As a pickem between clubs and a yet defined major would be, well, very odd treatment. Playing pickem, maybe this should be an almost demand for partner to bid his better major.

It is not my intent, however, to delve into the finer points of the treatement playing a forcing pass. Since this is not what I play. Maybe Maybe Misho or Rado, who advocate for pass being forcing and the new suit being a fit nonjump can step in here and explain their treatments, which I am sure they can do better than I.

This hand, as they say, however becomes a problem of frequencies. What kind of hand are you most likely to hold that will be problems bidding? Let's examine the hands.

1) Long in diamonds - pass and pass partners reopen dbl

2) Spade support - bid spades

3) Short D, no S fit - dbl for "takeout"

4) partial S fit, short is D - dbl and rebid spades if partner's rebid goes badly for you (not real likely).

5) partial S fit, short D, good suit - bid your suit (partner with "long" D is less likely to reopen)

6) partial S fit, long D, good suit - pass, partner will bid again

7) no spade fit, long D, good suit - pass, partner short in D will bid again, now you can bid your suit.

This works for me. As this example grouping shows, with a spade fit, you are going to bid spades. With no spade fit, you are going to tend to want to defend, will have the other two suits. or will have a one suiter. The way I play, with the other two suits, you double. With one other suit and their suit, you can safely pass, as partner will reopen when short in diamonds. So what is the problem hand? Short in their suit, partial fit for partner, good suit of your own. Here if you pass, it can go all pass. If you double, partner will not be thinking rebid his suit, and may jump in the third suit (the one you don't hold). So the fit nonjump works nicely to fill in the problem hand.
--Ben--

#22 User is offline   irg20 

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Posted 2003-September-09, 15:53

If I am 2-4-0-6 and we end up in an unplayable spot I will claim a misdeal. If the spot is playable then the opponents will claim a misdeal I imagine.

The remaining problem that needs to be addressed by your methods is how to show a club one suiter with short diamonds. I would like to be able to bid 6C with this handtype. I do not want to have to double and hope partner doesn't pass it.

I think fit non jumps are all very well in situations originally advocated by R&S, namely when I am a passed hand and so logically cannot possess a one-suited hand (as I would have preempted earlier on in the auction). At this high level I do not see to have that luxury.

I'l try a concrete suggestion:

Ian's scheme

5NT = two places to play (pd bids lowest acceptable suit).
Over this there is some luxury as if pd bid 6C (which he will a lot of the time I guess) I can bid 5D or 5H which can be used to distinguish either shape or strength with support for both majors).

6C = C one suiter
If pd has solid spades then he is still entitled to bid them. In such situations whether I have two small or a void is going to be of no little relevance.

6D = ? (can only really be based on spades or hearts and spades)


Ben's Scheme

5NT = GSF

6C = C+S. Here we seem to be arguing that a partial spade fit is sufficient. R&S in the auction p p 1H 2S, 3C suggest that x3y5 is pretty much the minimum typical S and C length. I'm not convinced that now we're at the 6 level (for a club bid) we should let in 2 card S suits in on our definition of what is acceptable tolerance.

6D =? (we agree here!?)
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#23 User is offline   sartaj1 

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Posted 2003-September-11, 02:45

If pass were forcing, this is not the hand for it.
If you pass and then bid 6C, it shows a grand slam trial in most expert partnerships
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#24 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-September-11, 05:20

Clearly your agreements are different with Paul than those of Stephen, Sartaj.
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#25 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2003-September-11, 16:53

Quote

If pass were forcing, this is not the hand for it.
If you pass and then bid 6C, it shows a grand slam trial in most expert partnerships


It is true, but it doesnt mean it is best way - just regular practice! Unfortunately grands are very rare and no need to vaste so many bids after forcing pass for it.
Misho
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#26 User is offline   sartaj1 

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Posted 2003-September-14, 20:47

Lets say we play 2 over 1 game force
1H - pass- 2C - 4S
?
Pass here is forcing and is used as a tool to compete with both the strong hands and the distributional hands.
With, say
x
AKxxx
xxx
Axxx
One would bid 5C.
But with
x
AQxxx
AKx
AJxx
we would pass 4S , wait for partner to double and then bid 5C as a slam try.
This is the "pass and pull principle".
Of course if partner does not double and bids a suit, we will raise to slam.

Thus the forcing pass lets us compete on both hand types and sends the right message across to partner about our strength.
About the auction in the post
1S - 5D - ?
It is far from clear that pass should be forcing; but if it is, then again the idea should be that
6C = some distribution, intention of playing here
pass and 6C = very good hand,looking for partnership cooperation for higher endeavours.
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#27 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2003-September-14, 20:49

Thanks for posting the complete hand.
Out of curiousity, did Paul recommend a particular response?
Alderaan delenda est
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#28 User is offline   sartaj1 

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Posted 2003-September-15, 20:14

when i chatted to him about the hand his attitude seemed to be that this is the price one has to pay once in a while for our style.
The psychic relay seemed to catch his fancy too....
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#29 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-September-15, 20:33

The psychic relay seemed to catch his fancy too....

Mine too, but you are not allowed to psyche a relay in Aust, Sartaj. I got in deep s*** for this once at the NOT.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#30 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2003-September-15, 21:18

Mine too, but you are not allowed to psyche a relay in Aust, Sartaj. I got in deep s*** for this once at the NOT.

But the real question is "What ae the rules in Manila?"
Alderaan delenda est
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#31 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-September-15, 22:00

Don't know for sure, Richard, but I suspect that psyching a relay would almost be regarded as psyching a 2c opening.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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