[mike777]

whereagles, on Aug 27 2005, 05:01 AM, said:

mike777, on Aug 27 2005, 01:48 AM, said:

You need a fit to use LTC, that is rule number one.

Hum.. look, I think we're talking about different things. When one hand has a very long suit, hcp count fails. The method of counting losers on the long suit hand + cover cards in pard's hand works better. That's what I'm talking about. Not the usual LTC method where one player counts losers, adds pard's losers and subtracts from 24.

You are defining losers and cover cards ala LTC theory.
Losers and cover cards comes out of LTC theory. LTC is based on fits and specifically says do not use it to determine opening hands.

If you want to use another theory OK, but tell us what it is and how it is developed? On what basis? I only see losers and cover cards defined ala LTC theory.

Just saying count losers and cover cards when you have a long suit is not a theory of bidding It is just some statement with no explanation . How can just saying this helps beginners and int. players?

[Winstonm]

I know Mary Bergen argues in favor of opening these types of hands with 2C but I'm not as yet convinced.

In 2/1, this is a nightmare hand. In SAYC it is a little better. In Precision, it's a no-brainer.

2/1: 1D-1H
?

As Justin pointed out, the next bid by opener will either propel us to slam or only get us to game.

SAYC: 1D-2C

Now the club fit is found quickly but opener still has some rebid problems.

Precision: 1C-2C. Game force with clubs. That's easy.

I'd have to say that with the methods employed, this pair did very well to reach a difficult but good slam. I doubt if I would have made it in 2/1.

Winston

[whereagles]

mike777, on Aug 27 2005, 02:56 PM, said:

You are defining losers and cover cards ala LTC theory.
Losers and cover cards comes out of LTC theory. LTC is based on fits and specically says do not use it to determine opening hands.

If you want to use another theory OK, but tell us what it is and how it is developed? On what basis?

Well, I learned the long suit + cover card concept from Klinger's book In which case fit or no fit doesn't make that much of a difference - it's the nr. of cover cards that is crucial.

[sceptic]

no one has mentioned Kokish over 2Club bid what do you think of that as response structure over 2 club

only for 2/1, I usually play basic sayc now, except with a few pards I still play 2/1 out of my depth system

[han]

Whether you play Kokish over 2C has little to do with what system you play, 2/1 or sayc. The 2C is still the same, right?

I like Kokish, but it needs some extra discussion. I think it meshes well with playing 2C-2H as a 2nd negative. You should discuss with which hands responder does not bid 2S over 2C-2D-2H.

[POJC]

That hand is definately not a 2♣ opener. I found that when i first found out about the 2♣ openings i used them far to often. Then i read this: http://www.prairiene...bridge/b_2c.htm
Small excerpt:

"Playing tricks -- at least 8 ½ to 9 tricks if your long suit is a major; 9 ½ to 10 tricks if it's a minor.
Defensive strength -- a minimum of three (preferably four) quick tricks.
Loser count -- your hand's quick tricks should outnumber its losers.
The "two-queens" test -- Do you want to be in game if partner has two queens and nothing else?
Rebid problems -- How difficult will this hand be to describe if you open it with a one-bid instead of 2C?"

The hand fails on most of these questions. Also having diamonds is often the most expensive when u have to rebid since after a 2♦ u have use a lot of biding space.
My plan in a natural system would be 1♦-1M-3♣ since a 3♦ rebid would be to little and 4♦ takes us beyond 3NT.

I agree totally with Jlall that 2♣ is a judgement bid (but a very bad one). Don't abuse the 2♣ openings.

I play controls after 2♣, an normally it works out fine since after the negative 2♦ response there is plenty biding space.
2♥ 2controls
2♠ 3controls
2NT 4 controls

After a strong opening there will usually be slam interest after a 2♠ bid (9 tricks + 3 controls) so biding space will not be an issue. If one plays control showing responses responder needs to have some sort of relay bid avaible with bad hands to conserve biding space. Eg 2♣-2♥,3♣-3♦ (relay).

[whereagles]

How interesting. I think that bidding the hand like

1D 1x
3C

is a far more ill-judged solution than opening 2C and hoping for the best.

[hrothgar]

whereagles, on Aug 28 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

How interesting. I think that bidding the hand like

1D 1x
3C

is a far more ill-judged solution than opening 2C and hoping for the best.

Because its SO much easier to show a 2 suited hand with the minors after a two level opening...

[han]

I think wereagles was suggesting that we'd bid 1D-1X-3C with the given hand. It is true that this is quite ugly.

Over 1H however (partner's most frequent call) you can just jump to 3NT, showing long strong diamonds and stoppers in spades and clubs.

[POJC]

whereagles, on Aug 27 2005, 05:54 PM, said:

How interesting. I think that bidding the hand like

1D 1x
3C

is a far more ill-judged solution than opening 2C and hoping for the best.

The more i look at this hand the less i like it. It's really nasty to bid. That however does not make it right to destroy the meaning of a strong 2♣ opening.
I imagine something like an auction like 2C-2D-3D-3S-3NT when partner has flat distrib and only ace of spades not being the best contract...
The biggest problem is that we dont have enough tricks for the strong opening. =Solution don't open with a strong two. Just like in bridge....

After a 1♦ opening we have ways to discribe our hand more accurately without knowing nothing about p's hand. Fx i like Hannie rebid of 3NT after 1♥.
After spades JS to clubs (better to lie about shape than strength) and rebid 3♦(which must be forcing) after 2♣.
This makes our exchange of information much better, than opening strong.
But true it's still ugly

[whereagles]

The point of opening strong is that..

1. I don't want to miss out a game.
2. It's ok to open 2C because it's almost impossible that we have a major suit fit, which makes the auction

2C 2x
3D 3y
3NT

an ok way to bid the hand.

Should pard have some sort of diamond fit, the hand sure becomes worth a 2C opener and he's free to keep bidding.

[mikestar]

[Winstonm]

IMO, a lot of this hand has to do with evaluation and no one has pointed out the singleton heart Q. For all practical purposes, this card is wastepaper and might as well be turned face down in the bidding and evaluation of the hand.

The value of high cards is not only in their "timing and trick" elements, but also in their "support" value. Axx opposite xxx is only an Ace. Put the same xxx opposite Qxx and you have almost nothing; however put the Axx across from Qxx and the Ace has caused the Q to increase massively in value.

For the singleton Q to be of increased value, it takes a combination of cards, AKx or KJx. Finally, K10x opposite Q is only good for one trick, but opposite Qx may produce 2 tricks - of those holding, Qx has more value than Q.

So for this hand I ignore the singleton Q and see a nice 17 count that due to the long suit and the controls is worth about 18+ to 19. A 5-loser 19 is not IMO worth a 2C opener; having ruled that out, my choice for a rebid are basicaly down to 3. Underbid and rebid 3D. Distort my shape with 3C. Hope for the best with 2C.

A couple of oddball choices that could work at times would be 1S (really risky) or 3N (Lying about the diamond solidity).

I have my own principle to follow in these situations: Don't be a hero. Make the most practical and descriptive bid available. As this auction has not started real well for our side with a 1H response, it appears 3N is the most likely spot so I make the bid that is most likely to get us there: 3C. Partner should never get excited about the jump shift suit without wonderful support, so even with Qx of diamonds and KJxx of clubs 3D by partner is the better call IMO.

I view this minor/minor jump shift as either a game/slam interest unbalanced hand with both minors or a game forcing single suiter (counting 64 as more single-suited than not) looking for no trump. The next bid will clarify. Over any 3-level call that partner makes, I can continue with 3N to show a hand that could have bid a direct 3N but without the required suit. This should place partner in a reasonably good position to visualize my hand and take reasonable further action.

Winston

[inquiry]

I agree, what you want to open with this hand is a matter of style (or what you have been drinking, not eating). I have two bids for strong minor one suiters. A 2♦ opening bid, and a 2♣ opening bid. 2♦ shows 9.5 winners, 2♣ is true game force. Despite this two Strong options, I would choose neither of those bids with this hand. It just isn't good enough.

If you (or anyone else), opens this hand 1♦, i assume you will have no problem getting to 6♣ if partner responds 2♣. It is, as they say, elementary.

The tricky part becomes how to bid the bidding will go if partner responds 1♥. People have suggested jumps to 3NT, 3♣, 3♦. My rebid choice over 1♥ is a tame, 2♣. (for me, a jump to 3♣ is a weak two suiter in minors). Think of this 2♣ as gazillia like if you want, it is forcing (although in theory partner can pass with 4-7 and very weak hand, that pass is virtually impossible, since you could have strong hand INCLUDING clubs). Over 2♣ here responder would venture forth with 2NT as a transfer to 3♣, planning on taking another call. Opener would reject the transfer, and bid 3♦ to show a diamond one suiter not good enough for the opening bid of 2♦. Responder will now bid 3NT showing long clubs as well as a spade stopper, and at least slam interest (else 3NT immediately, or 2♠ last round, general force, then 3NT). Clearly opener would continue the auction here.

[mike777]

I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons.

I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.
Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxx
Those opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.
CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE.

[inquiry]

mike777, on Aug 28 2005, 01:29 PM, said:

I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons.

I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.
Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxx
Those opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.
CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE.

Sadly, you might play in 2♣ facing...

xxxxx xxxxx x xx

Bidding this way. :-(

[mike777]

inquiry, on Aug 28 2005, 12:32 PM, said:

mike777, on Aug 28 2005, 01:29 PM, said:

I also open 1D and rebid 2clubs NONFORCING but not for any of the above reasons.

I only have 19 hcp, I just hope the 2 level is not too high.
Partner could have: xxxx=xxxxx=void=xxxx
Those opening 2C or 1D and game forcing with 3c or 3nt have wonderful partners.
CALL ME MR. CONSERVATIVE.

Sadly, you might play in 2♣ facing...

xxxxx xxxxx x xx

Bidding this way. :-(

NOPE

partner bids 2h over 1d with that hand thank goodness.

[han]

I don't agree with this philosophy Mike. It is true that partner could have responded on some subminimal hand, but that is not very likely. Better to assume that partner has a little something for his bid.

If you keep thinking that partner might have a misfitting 0-count then you never get anywhere. I'd rather get to some unmakable games than miss many out of fear that partner doesn't have his bid.

[mike777]

Well bidding like this can get you to slam (6c) while many are playing in 3d (rebid) or 3nt rebid at times. Also you can still raise pard's 2clubs with an overbid of 3c and overbid your games with this style also. Far from perfect but it does allow you outs when partner response very weak and still lets you raise at times with a 3clubs to get to those overbid games.

[helene_t]

It's a bad idea to define the 2♦ response to 2♣ as negative.

It means that responder is required to make some other bid with any positive hand, even awkward 3-suiters like the one posted. With such a hand, it's much better to preserve bidding space by beginning with 2♦. Hopefully, opener has an easier descriptive bid. Most of the times he rebids 2NT (easy, you're on known terrain with your usual notrump structure), or he rebids a major suit, which you can either support or, if it's your short suit, wait with 2NT (or whatever you have agreed to use as a 2nd relay).

So 2♦ doesn't show anything. It just asks opener to describe his hand.

I confess that with this particular hand it would be easier with an immediate shape-showing response:
2♣-3♣
4♣ .........
because if it starts
2♣-2♦
3♦-4♣
......
it may be unclear which calls are natural and which are cuebids, and also it's unclear to opener that the partnership has enough values for slam.