[Al_U_Card]

Scoring: IMP

p-1♣-p-1♦-
p-1NT-p-3♣-
p-???

---

With a pick-up 2/1 partner, the uninterrupted auction goes 1C-1D-1NT-3C...
Not sure if a D raise is indicated but if pard is going to reverse then the 1NT bid just limits my hand. How should I continue (if at all) and why?

[Walddk]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 25 2005, 10:34 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

p-1♣-p-1♦-
p-1NT-p-3♣-
p-???

---

With a pick-up 2/1 partner, the uninterrupted auction goes 1C-1D-1NT-3C...
Not sure if a D raise is indicated but if pard is going to reverse then the 1NT bid just limits my hand. How should I continue (if at all) and why?

Depends on your agreement. If playing 2-way check back Stayman, 3♣ is to play (sign off). You can't play in 2♣. If you don't have that gadget on your cc, 3♣ is invitational I suppose, but I am not sure. I haven't played that treatment in ages.

If invitational, you must pass. If forcing, you must bid 3NT. No agreement = guesswork.

Roland

[Free]

Definetly no pass, I find it quite useless to bid 3♣ instead of an immediate inverted 2♣ (which is standard in 2/1 as far as I know) with some invitational hand without a Major. I bid 3NT.

[mike777]

Free, on Aug 25 2005, 04:02 PM, said:

Definetly no pass, I find it quite useless to bid 3♣ instead of an immediate inverted 2♣ (which is standard in 2/1 as far as I know) with some invitational hand without a Major. I bid 3NT.

I sure hope inv minors are not standard in 2/1. I would guess this is invite, too many other ways to force to game and not confuse my p/u pard.

[awm]

Obviously it would be nice to have agreements here. But we don't.

I think 3♣ should be forcing. With an invitational hand including 5+♣ and no four card major, partner could've bid 3♣ directly as a limit raise (or 2♣ inverted minors if you're playing them). So this leaves the following possibilities:

(1) Partner has 5+♣ and a game forcing hand, when not playing inverted minors.
(2) Partner has only 4♣ and thus didn't want to raise clubs directly.

In case (1) the jump is obviously game forcing. In case (2) it would be somewhat silly to jump to the three level on a potential 7-card fit if the auction is not forcing. What is opener to do with 3 clubs and a minimum? So option (2) really only makes sense if the bid is game forcing.

In either case it seems like partner is proposing a game or slam in clubs if you have a suitable hand. Your hand has some decent features, so I'd cooperate by trying 3♦. If partner bids 3NT next (mild slam try and/or worried about the majors) then you can pass; if partner cuebids 3♠ then we're off to the races.

[mikeh]

roland is right (geez, it is becoming boring to keep saying that): it is a pure guess.

I do disagree with Roland about the meaning of this bid if one plays 2 way checkback. For me, in 2 way checkback, I use 2N to puppet to 3♣: thus I can use 3♣ here as a picture bid: slam interest, at least 5-5 in the minors, no outside Ace or King. While this is a rare hand, this treatment is very powerful, and really costs nothing. With an invitational 2N, bid 2♣ as a puppet to 2♦ and now bid 2N.


BTW, using 2N as a puppet to 3♣ caters not only to 3♣ signoffs but also to certain other difficult to describe, tho rare, slammish hands: if responder bids over 3♣, he shows 5+ in opener's first suit and only 4 in his own suit, with slam interest (the details are easy to work out and I will not take up space here)

So toss a coin. Pass or bid. If in doubt (as I am) 'punt' with 3♦. Surely that expresses doubt and an intelligent pickup partner will work it out, ...but in a real game, bid 3♦ in tempo to avoid director issues If that is too tough (and it would be for me), I'd vote for pass.

[the hog]

Why ask questions about playing with a pick up partner? These questions are seriously pointless. Who knows what he has. Well if I must....I bid 3NT. I have a fitting D honour, 2 quick H tricks and the opponents may misdefend.

[Walddk]

mikeh, on Aug 26 2005, 12:26 AM, said:

I do disagree with Roland about the meaning of this bid if one plays 2 way checkback. For me, in 2 way checkback, I use 2N to puppet to 3♣: thus I can use 3♣ here as a picture bid: slam interest, at least 5-5 in the minors, no outside Ace or King. While this is a rare hand, this treatment is very powerful, and really costs nothing. With an invitational 2N, bid 2♣ as a puppet to 2♦ and now bid 2N.

All a matter of agreement again. This is not how I play a raise to 2NT after 1♣ - 1new ; 1NT

For me 2NT is a natural invite.
2♣ followed by 2NT is also an invite, but with club support (honour concentration in a 3-card suit possible).

Then it will be easier for opener to judge the trick potential in 3NT with something like Axxxx, KJxxx or the like.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

If we didn't know what we were playing after 1C - 1x - 1NT, perhaps we should have tried the option of not opening? It's not much of an opening bid, and this would have avoided the pure guess position we have here.

[helene_t]

I would pass. Can't imagine that 3♣ is forcing by a pick-up partner. It's most likely to be invitational with 5-4 minors, or maybe with clubs only in case partner wasn't sure if you play inverted minors or not.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Aug 25 2005, 11:12 PM, said:

Why ask questions about playing with a pick up partner? These questions are seriously pointless. Who knows what he has. Well if I must....I bid 3NT. I have a fitting D honour, 2 quick H tricks and the opponents may misdefend.

Amazingly, I agree with the hog. LOL

Still, there is a slight difference. I would only bid 3NT if I had 2+ glasses of wine at dinner

[Al_U_Card]

This is the hand
that bid 3C...

---

my cc at the time was posted and showed inverted minors and NMF
I took the hand for a good 10 to a bad 12....with 5D and 4C
Please suggest bids to show this kind of a hand, tnx

[mike777]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 26 2005, 08:28 AM, said:

This is the hand
that bid 3C... 

---

my cc at the time was posted and showed inverted minors and NMF
I took the hand for a good 10 to a bad 12....with 5D and 4C
Please suggest bids to show this kind of a hand, tnx

over 1nt why not 3s advance cue bid....whatever 3s means I bet you will not pass!
Could even try 2s but that has a bit of risk.

Last resort=6c over 1nt but never 3 clubs with a pick up pard.

[Jurek S]

I'd bid but basicly on opponents silence with all that lenght in majors, and also with pick-up partners it pays to bid on (it could be intended as forcing, you can play 3NT well, they can defend badly...

[Stephen Tu]

That hand is appropriate for a first round strong jump shift if appropriate, jump shift in diamonds and support clubs, followed by a spade cue describes the hand well.

If you are unsure whether partner intended a bid as forcing, in my view it is always right to bid on. The reason is if partner intended it as invitational only, the worst case scenario is that you end up slightly overbid. But that is not always a complete disaster; you can always get a bit lucky in the play & make it to recover. If you have overbid to a making game that is a great board. The most common bad result is likely down 1, & you may still get field protection from a field that tends to overbid. Only very rarely do you end up doubled down 2, the worst that could probably happen.

If on the other hand you miss a cold game or slam, no good thing can happen in the play to recover a decent result for you.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

If playing 2-way check back Stayman, 3♣ is to play (sign off). You can't play in 2♣. If you don't have that gadget on your cc, 3♣ is invitational I suppose, but I am not sure.

Depends entirely on agreements. If playing 2-way puppet checkback as published by Woolsey, signoff in clubs is 2c ... 3c, immediate jump is forcing purish 5-5, invitational with clubs is 2c ... 2nt.

[finnigan1]

As to wether it is forcing or inviting , breaking down the auction should be a priority. 1st 1C, 1 D, 1 NT, 3C , the 1D responce using the Walsh principle are either very weak , invitational or game force, pending on sequence.
This sequence does show strenght with game values, where as 2C over 1NT is weak , and on a crisscross or inverted minor 1C 2D , would tend to present invitational values; by deduction 3C must be a game going auction, with the D King 3rd and the A K in harts, vs Q XXX in spades 3 options present themselves.
A- raise the D to 3 D , thus impllying that the majors are very weak [ not really]
B- bid 3 H as a cooperative bid with tolerence for D [cheapest control card]
C- bid 3 NT with a wide open spade suit, hoping to catch P with the 10 X .
Keeping in mind that 1 NT limited the hand, with a posible 5/5 in the minors or better P would lean to the minor suit contract, if not holding the 10 X in spades or the J X .
A cooperative bid of 3 H would stand out , with the ever existing bailout bid of 4 C .

[Rebound]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 26 2005, 09:28 AM, said:

I took the hand for a good 10 to a bad 12....with 5D and 4C

This is what I thought also. 1♦ rather than 1NT obviously shows a hand unsuited for NT. 3♣ over 1NT must be weaker than 1♣-2♣. So to me it must be invitational with 5-4.

[Double !]

Just an observation, not selling and I know that no one is buying, but:
here's yet another hand where a strong jump-shift, if used, might have made life much easier in a casual partnership.

Question: assuming that you are NOT playing inverted minor raises, no double-barrelled checkback stayman nor XYZ, (perhaps with nmf but don't count on it), how would one respond to a 1 club opener with the following?
a) 5-9 pts, with 5 diamonds and 4, maybe 5, clubs?
b ) 10-12 pts with 5 diamonds and 4, maybe 5, clubs?
c) an opening hand with 5 diamonds and 4, maybe 5, clubs.
d) an ace better than an opening hand with 5 diamonds and 4, maybe 5, clubs?

How to bid these types of hands without our toys.

[HeartA]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 26 2005, 08:28 AM, said:

This is the hand
that bid 3C...

---

my cc at the time was posted and showed inverted minors and NMF
I took the hand for a good 10 to a bad 12....with 5D and 4C
Please suggest bids to show this kind of a hand, tnx

I would bid 2♠.