[luis]

I completely agree with Misho, auctions after 1m-1M;2m are very common and not handled well by sayc or natural systems.
I found that the use of an artificial forcing to game bid as misho suggest is easy to remember and behaves very well taking all the pressure away from the bidding.
I've posted in this same forum a message about Jeff Ruben's idea and got 0 answers/comments :-)
Maybe it is time to refresh that:
You can find the use of a relay after 1m-1M;2m as proposed by Jeff Rubens in this post:
http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...ay;threadid=581

[inquiry]

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Hi Ben et al,

1. In my notes it is never said, that a new suit by responder is nonforcing in SAYC. This is your opinion, not SAYC. If I am wrong, take my apologisze and show me the text. (but we had this discussion before )

Ok.. I actually found the ACBL SAYC booklet online. The link is....
http://www.acbl.org/misc/sayc.htm

Upon reading these notes I discovered that SAYC plays...

1C-1H
1N-2D as non forcing,,,, but

1C-1H
2C-2D as forcing and showing a real diamond suit.

My recollection of SAYC on this point was, incorrect. But now we have a link to the "official" version of SAYC as stated by its creator (the ACBL) to solve future "what does an SAYC bid mean". The relative section as it relates to responders second bid states...
"Second-round forcing bids. A new suit response (other than after a 1NT rebid by opener) is a one-round force. If it is a fourth suit in the auction, it may be artificial."

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Hi Luis!
I carefully read TSAR - Jeff Rubens is one of my favorite theorists. As usually great technics!!! Thank you! I think TSAR is too complicate for SAYC players.
By the way, in relay I posted lovers of distributional bidding can continue with cheapest suit relay for real distribution. First answers are game oriented, but if responder can continue for slam by the way partnership like.
Misho

[EricK]

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4. To our heros, who think, that a new suit bid show a stopper in the new suit: What do you do with a hand with values but no valuable stoppers in the both missing suits? F.E.: xxx,AKQxx,Jxx,AK

I would make a slight lie and bid 2D. If partner bids 2NT I will bid 3C. There is a lot of slam potential here (eg Axx Jx Kx QJxxxx).

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Or what about a hand like AK, KQxxx, xxx,xxx?
Still bid 2 Spade showing four OR a stopper?

Absolutely. How can it go wrong?

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Any reasons besides the personal believe, that it is necessary to show stoppers then to ask for them for your approach?

I don't believe it is necessary. Either approach will work. I believe it is "standard" in most natural systems, without discussion, that new suits show either length or values.

In your example hand xxx AKQxx Jxx AK, If I were playing asks without discussion I would be very unsure what the following showed/denied

1C 1H 2C 2D 2S, 1C 1H 2C 2D 2NT, 1C 1H 2C 2D 2H, 1C 1H 2C 2D 3C, not to mention higher actions by opener.

Playing "shows" rather than "asks" with a pick-up advanced/expert partner, I think I would know what the follow ups meant.

BTW, in my preferred methods, I like many others here, use eg 1C 1H 2C 2D as an artificial relay. But obviously this needs discussion, and is far from standard yet.

Eric

[Codo]

Hi Eric et al,

thanks for your nice replies. They opened my eyes.
I hope some more comments are allowed:

4. What do you do with a hand with values but no valuable stoppers in the both missing suits? F.E.: xxx,AKQxx,Jxx,AK
I would make a slight lie and bid 2D. If partner bids 2NT I will bid 3C. There is a lot of slam potential here (eg Axx Jx Kx QJxxxx).


Sure, you can make the small lie and sure you have slam interest with a lot of pds possible hands, but I still belive, that an asking bid will have no problems here to find out the right destination....

I believe it is "standard" in most natural systems, without discussion, that new suits show either length or values.

It surely is till a decent level. But I cannot remember when I latest met a guy who played it this way in real life. I think NMF or some kind of checkback are much more common now. But this is not the question, the question was about SAYC, so 2 Diamond really should show a real suit. Time for me to turn down the "I play SAYC" in my profile....


1.1C 1H 2C 2D 2S,
2. 1C 1H 2C 2D 2NT,
3.1C 1H 2C 2D 2H,
4. 1C 1H 2C 2D 3C

I had bed, that this would show:
1. no 3 hearts, no diamond stopper, but spade values
or : no 3 hearts, diamond stopper, but nothing in spades...
2. both suits stopped. Maximum if nmf is a gf, minmum if not...
3. 3 hearts, minimum
4. no 3 hearts, no outside values, no 4 diamonds

I agree, that with the "showing" style, all these auctions should be pretty simple.

But you have to accept other problems instead.
Else, why did you and "anybody" else change this thing in their partnerships?

Kind Regards

Roland

[EricK]

Hi Roland,

Quote

But you have to accept other problems instead.
Else, why did you and "anybody" else change this thing in their partnerships?

I for one like to play cheapest new suit after 1x 1y 2x as a forcing relay for two main reasons

1) So I can show slam interest in partner's suit at a low level
eg 1C 1H 2C 2D 2NT 3C

2) So I can show slam interest in my suit at a low level
eg 1C 1H 2C 2D 2NT 3H

In hands where I am just looking for stops for NT the loss of room in sometimes bidding eg 2S instead of 2D is less important.

Others may have other reasons.

Eric