[Walddk]

Winstonm, on Aug 19 2005, 08:54 PM, said:

Walddk, on Aug 19 2005, 01:31 PM, said:

I know that some play that a rebid of own suit by responder is non-forcing. I don't subscribe to that theory. I might be able to stop in 4mi, but not in 3.

If 3♦ is non-forcing after

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♦

I don't know how to bid this hand:

Q4
A
AQJ10843
K84

If you don't think you are strong enough to force to game, do not bid 2/1, bid 1NT. Quite simple.

Roland

Fortunately, I never pick up that hand.

Maybe not, Winston, but maybe you should consider bidding 1NT followed by 3♦ on

6
J4
AJ108764
Q72

Then you have 2♦ followed by 3♦ available as game forcing. The whole idea of 2/1: you don't have to jump around all the time and ruin it for your side when you finally get the good cards. 2♦ is game forcing!

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

An old trick is to use the raise to 3NT (a sort of a fast arrival fudge) after his 2H bid, to show your kind of a hand. No fit with the majors (nor even a tolerance) and the C suit locked tight. (2NT whb balanced and stronger than a minimum opener looking for the best contract.) Pard can pass if he feels it right, or with someing like Jxxx(x) in a major he can bid 4 of a minor invitational.

[mikeh]

awm, on Aug 19 2005, 02:03 PM, said:

Well, maybe I'm showing my lack of understanding for 2/1 here (which I don't play in ANY of my established partnerships). But what would you rebid on a hand like:

Kx
QJx
AQJxx
xxx

Suppose the auction starts 1♠-2♦-2♥. What am I expected to do now?

On this hand, you bid a forcing 2♠. Partner, if a 2/1 player, will know that 2♠ may be a waiting or 'mark time' bid, and will not go nuts. He can bid 2N, to right side the contract, 3♥ to get back to the 5-3 fit if it exists, etc. This is NOT an problem for 2/1....

[P_Marlowe]

1) No, I dont think this hand qualifies as a game force,
but I am not saying, that 2D is wrong.
The alternative is to use the forcing 1 NT to find out more
about partners hand
Sometimes 1 NT will work out better, sometimes not, you have
to make a choice: 2D is an overbid, 1NT a (slight) underbid,

A further remark:

1S - 2D
2H - 3C (*)

(*) I dont believe that Lawrence teaches 3C as natural, this is 4th suit forcing,
and says nothing about clubs, so anybody claiming 3C shows 9 cards
should cite the book and the page
The main trouble is, that if you bid 3NT over 3H in this sequence you are
overstating your power, ... and of course you give the wrong impression
about your shape => Over 2H you are probably forced to bid 3D

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArcLight]

1S 2D
2H 3C
3H

>Now it's the last chance to bid 3NT, and you must sieze it.


I don't think thats a good Bid, 3NT from my side with x -x - A98765 - AKxxx

Better to bail out in 4♦ (I hoped)


------------------------------
1S - 2D
2H - 3C (*)

>(*) I dont believe that Lawrence teaches 3C as natural, this is 4th suit forcing,
and says nothing about clubs, so anybody claiming 3C shows 9 cards
should cite the book and the page
The main trouble is, that if you bid 3NT over 3H in this sequence you are
overstating your power, ... and of course you give the wrong impression
about your shape => Over 2H you are probably forced to bid 3D


I disagree. You have already made a game force with your 2D bid. So you dont need 4SF. 3C does show a club suit. I base my knowledge of 2/1 on Mike Lawrences 2/1 CD.

[Winstonm]

Walddk, on Aug 19 2005, 02:14 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Aug 19 2005, 08:54 PM, said:

Walddk, on Aug 19 2005, 01:31 PM, said:

I know that some play that a rebid of own suit by responder is non-forcing. I don't subscribe to that theory. I might be able to stop in 4mi, but not in 3.

If 3♦ is non-forcing after

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♦

I don't know how to bid this hand:

Q4
A
AQJ10843
K84

If you don't think you are strong enough to force to game, do not bid 2/1, bid 1NT. Quite simple.

Roland

Fortunately, I never pick up that hand.

Maybe not, Winston, but maybe you should consider bidding 1NT followed by 3♦ on

6
J4
AJ108764
Q72

Then you have 2♦ followed by 3♦ available as game forcing. The whole idea of 2/1: you don't have to jump around all the time and ruin it for your side when you finally get the good cards. 2♦ is game forcing!

Roland

I do bid this way with this hand; however with:

xx, xx, KQJ9xxx, Axx

I can't bid it the same way. So this is the 2D, 3D hand for me. Maybe we'll play 3N with 22-24 between us when partner bids 2N, but with a guarantee of at least xx in diamonds opposite where else would we rather be?

With the big diamond hands, I can always invent a 4th suit force - not ideal, but with 3 bids needed and only 2 slots open, something has to give - and I'm more inclined to invite with invitational values, show disinterest with weaker hands, and commit to game with values- which is all the 4th suit means to me in this auction - we're going to at least game, partner; now all we have to do is figure our where.

Winston

[Fluffy]

Sorry, I'm a bit losed... do you guys happen to play 3♣ natural on this action? cos I don't, and would bid 3♦ rather than 3♣.

[mikeh]

I have seen several players use 4th suit as artificial, strong, when they are already in a forcing auction. With all respect, why?

4th suit forcing is used to create a force: usually in sequences in which we would prefer to use jumps as limit (or picture, or signoff etc), thus requiring us to manufacture a force.

If you are playing 'strong' 2/1, 1♠ 2♦ has created an auction in which you cannot stop below game, so why waste an otherwise useful, informative bid as an artificial force?

Now, if you play 'weak' 2/1, in which a rebid of one's suit by responder can be passed, you may have a need for an artificial flavour to the 4th suit.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I have seen several players use 4th suit as artificial, strong, when they are already in a forcing auction. With all respect, why?

It depends on whether you want 1s-2d-2h-2s to absolutely guarantee 3S, and 2nt to guarantee a club stopper. If you do, something has to give, because you pick up these 2353 hands with no club stopper that would have no bid unless 3c can be artificial.

If you are willing to bid 2S on a small doubleton spade, then 3c can be natural.

Even in a GF auction, it can be useful to have 4th suit artificial, to give greater definition to your other bids. When 3 suits have been bid, it's quite unlikely to have a fit in the 4th suit.

As an aside, not having to manufacture a rebid by having auctions like 1s-2d-2s-3d isn't always a great help. On that type of auction, opener is in a guessing game over which round suits the diamond bidder has a stopper in (does 3H show doubt about clubs? If so how do you show doubt about hearts?). Sometimes bidding your side fragment strength will give partner more useful information than knowing about the sixth card of your initial suit.

I don't find that 2/1 GF bidders bid any more accurately than I do using methods with more non-forcing sequences.

[jdulmage]

1NT forcing.