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Bidding a weak hand

Poll: What do you bid? (35 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you bid?

  1. Pass (12 votes [34.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.29%

  2. 2[HE] (8 votes [22.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.86%

  3. 3[HE] (13 votes [37.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.14%

  4. 4[HE] (2 votes [5.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.71%

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#21 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2005-August-20, 20:43

Free, on Aug 20 2005, 12:17 PM, said:

2♥ is hardly a preempt, so that's useless.  If you want to open this piece of garbage, open at least at 3-level.  But still, it's ♥s, so just make it 4♥.  Playing NAMYATS, partner won't do much with a strong hand.

Hmmm. Opening in first seat on your right is a weak 2D. Of that wonderfully reasoned and practiced convention card for contructive auctions, how much of it have you just been denied?

Let's see. Forcing NT. Constructive raises. Bergen raises. Jacoby 2N. Artificial forcing 1C. Flannery, multi, weak and Strong Roman. Forcing 2C. Criss-cross. Inverted minors. And on and on and on.

Not much of a preempt. I suppose you are right. But I'd bet that if we played 100 hands with a random opening hand dealt to second seat while first seat was dealt a weak 2D that I was allowed to open but you were required to pass that you would have absolutely no chance to wind up on top.

I don't care if you are Bob Hamman or Fred Gitelman - if your arsenal is reduced by 40% or more you are left guessing, and sometimes even the best guess wrong.

Winston
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#22 User is offline   jdulmage 

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Posted 2005-August-20, 21:48

I'm gonna pass with that hand. If partner opens 2NT, we are off to slam, maybe even if he opens 1NT. This is a great hand and I can't afford to cut partner off too soon.

However, if the opponents open, I will be happy to stick my nose in there later on.
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#23 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2005-August-20, 21:48

Quote

Hmmm. Opening in first seat on your right is a weak 2D. Of that wonderfully reasoned and practiced convention card for contructive auctions, how much of it have you just been denied?


2♦ is arguably a much more effective preempt than 2♥ ... :)
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#24 User is offline   jdeegan 

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Posted 2005-August-22, 00:21

This is a 4H bid at other vulnerabilties and/or table positions. I'm in an unfavorable spot, so 3H looks about right. The problem with bidding 2H is that it turns partner into an enemy. Opening 4H raises the prospect of a telephone number. To me, passing is scared bridge, and scared bridge never wins.
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#25 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2005-August-22, 02:43

luke warm, on Aug 21 2005, 02:38 AM, said:

Free, on Aug 20 2005, 12:17 PM, said:

2♥ is hardly a preempt, so that's useless.

does that go for all weak 2H bids or just this particular hand?

Imo it goes for most weak 2♥ bids. Opps usually have ♠s, they Dbl, partner raises to 4♥, they still find their game or slam, or even get pushed in it.

Obviously they take away our normal opening system, but defenses have been created to deal with such openings in a good way.
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#26 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-August-22, 02:58

ArcLight, on Aug 19 2005, 03:52 PM, said:

What do you bid?


I open 3 hearts (at unfavourable vuln, I bid one level less than I would normally).
No defensive tricks promised if opps stick in and p doubles for business;
on the other hand, no risk of missing game: pard can still bid game if he sees chances.
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#27 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-August-22, 07:59

coyot, on Aug 20 2005, 05:10 AM, said:

Jlall, on Aug 19 2005, 04:16 PM, said:

3H. I really don't agree with mike that this bid takes partner out of the game. If partner raises hearts at any level that can't be bad. If partner Xs them, hes not counting on tricks from me. I think pass is more likely to take partner out of the game, how will he ever play me for 8-3?

With due respect, what is the most likely shape of your partner from the statistical point of view? 0-1 hearts, 3-4 against your 3card and 44 to 55 against your singletons. Your shape and your values are next to useless - and if not, you'll have the tools to bid them...

Against NT, you're safe with transfers, against minor opener, you're safe with weak jumpshift... and against 1♠ you have a nice pass with hearts for any reopen auctions.

BTW, unless your agreements are that 3♥ red vs. white would go down 3 against gargabe, partner raising hearts at any level CAN pretty much be bad.

lol...With due respect, bidding on the "most likely statistical hand" for partner is silly. You make the best effort to bid your hand, and let partner bid his. I'm also not sure where you came up with this analysis of "0-1 hearts" since there are 5 hearts out divided by 3 which is...1.67 hearts... but anyways the point is moot.

Saying you'll have the tools to show your 8-3 after passing is laughable. You must have a great system, especially the part where the opponents pass throughout when you have 8-3 and 3 points. Statistically how many points does this give them? You're right if it goes p p 1N p then you'll be well placed, but it also would have just gone 3H p 4H had you opened. I am also not aware of anyone who plays weak jump shifts by a passed hand, this is a silly agreement since you didn't open with a preempt.

You are correct, I will go down 3 opposite a stiff heart and 0 points. They also make 7N in that case, and I would be best served preempting them though its doubtful anything would stop them. Under your VERY faulty logic, it is never right to preempt! Afterall, partner rates to be short, and if we passed the opponents would pass throughout and we could transfer right? Let's just play strong 2s.

With all due respect, passing with 8-3 is losing bridge
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#28 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2005-August-22, 10:12

Quote

I am also not aware of anyone who plays weak jump shifts by a passed hand, this is a silly agreement since you didn't open with a preempt.


For once I'm going to have to disagree with "The Plano Kid", and with absolutely no respect whatwoever. :lol:

The idea that if you don't open with a preempt you can't have a preemptive-type hand is an elusion. Seems so many these days work too hard to make life miserable for the opponents when in fact they may just be miserable people to begin with and no amount of miseration can increase their miserableness.

So, what about a hand like this? KJ10xxx, xxx, void, Kxxx.

Voids are poison in 2-level preempts - they contain not only too much offensive value but sometimes too much defensive value to ever be adequately described after a 2S opening - partner just ain't ever gonna get it.

But if the auction starts:
P-1D-P-1H
2S

Now partner knows that you hold a weak two that has a flaw - it was either a hair too good, a hair too much shortness, or a tad too much defense for an initial action. Sure, the opps have exchanged more information this way, but so have you and pard, and you've still taken away a level of bidding.

And if you pass and it is partner who opens the bidding you are better placed to have a sensible auction.

I am 99% convinced that I am not wrong; however, I am not 99% sure that I am right. But I am 100% sure I am quite possibly mad. Probably a side effect of all the bad drugs from the late 60's and early 70's.

Over to you, "Kid".

Winston
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#29 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-August-22, 10:25

think you misunderstood me winston. what you described is a weak jump overcall.

He meant (i thought) if partner opens a minor you can show your hand by making a weak jump shift (he said this directly after against NTs youre safe with transfers, so I assume he's talking about partners bids). You are right you can have a flawed preempt and pass, but you would not then make a preempt against 2 passed opps when pard has opened the bidding
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#30 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-August-22, 10:29

btw i would open your example hand with a preempt, but i get your point :P
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#31 User is offline   daswallow 

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Posted 2005-August-22, 11:10

1♠ lol.
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