[Double !]

To all of you bridge rules legal eagles out there.

I am not advocating the following. Just looking for a "simple answer". (Is that an oxymoron?)

Is the Gardener 1NT overcall (either a natural strong NT hand or a weakish, 1-suited hand: responder bids 2C to find out) defined as being a controlled psychic bid. Is it legal in acbl play. I asked 4 TDs at the summer NABCs in NYC in 2004, and never received a clear answer. Two were not familiar with the convention. (Nico, forgive them.) It would also be interesting to know whether or not the convention is permitted in the UK, and in any other locations or federations such as WBF. It's not something that was just recently developed.

As always, thanx in advance.

DHL

[FrancesHinden]

It's allowed in the UK at level 4.

[luis]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 11 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

It's allowed in the UK at level 4.

Have you defeated the monster at the end of level 3?

[mikestar]

In the ACBL, this is disallowed even on the Super Chart (insane, isn't it?)

It is not a controlled psychic, but transgresses the Super Chart requirement that for defenses to enemy natural openings that can show a one suiter, the suit must either be known or one of two possible suits. (So Garder where the suit is guaranteed to be a minor would be Super Chart legal.)

[mycroft]

1) some people say so. Frankly, a controlled psychic is just another convention; the ACBL disallowances are to stop those who say "well, our 5HCP 1H opening is a psychic, but we use Jump Shifts to check just in case." No, sorry, your 5HCP 1H opening is part of your system. Using 2C as "which kind of NT over call do you have" is a control.

2) The GCC is very clear:

ALLOWED, COMPETITIVE:

3. NOTRUMP OVERCALL for either
a) two-suit takeout showing at least 5–4 distribution and at least one
known suit (At the four level or higher there is no requirement to
have a known suit.) or
b) three-suit takeout (at least three cards in each of the three suits.)

Your NT overcall is neither natural (because it frequently is unbalanced one-suited), nor one of the two allowed conventional types. Ergo, not legal in the ACBL in GCC-rated competition.

Midchart has no opening for this, either; The Superchart says:

Any non-destructive convention, treatment or method, except:

2. Defenses over opponents’ natural suit bids must promise,
a) for non-cuebids showing a single suited hand, one of no
more than two possible suits.

So, probably not even there. Funny, eh?

Probably easier to license in the U.K. given the name Gardener...

The fact that ACBL TDs couldn't do this - look up the chart and show you - is scary. Unless you were being hypothetical 5 minutes before game time...
Michael.

[hrothgar]

The Gardner 1NT overcall is a perfect example supporting one of my "pet" theories:

Bridge would be much better off if the concept of "psyches" were removed from the regulations. Psyches are an extremely imperfect way of describing the actual decision making process that players are using.

A regulatory structure that is based on a flawed premise can not help BUT generate problem cases...

[Double !]

mycroft, on Aug 11 2005, 03:53 PM, said:

The fact that ACBL TDs couldn't do this - look up the chart and show you - is scary. Unless you were being hypothetical 5 minutes before game time...
Michael.

I asked them during the break between 1st and 2nd session, they were conversing, straightening up, etc.

[david_c]

hrothgar, on Aug 12 2005, 12:27 AM, said:

The Gardner 1NT overcall is a perfect example supporting one of my "pet" theories:

Bridge would be much better off if the concept of  "psyches" were removed from the regulations.  Psyches are an extremely imperfect way of describing the actual decision making process that players are using.

That's going too far, surely. If a player deliberately makes a call which goes against the partnership's agreements, then that is a psyche. The regulations have to say whether this is allowed or not. Hence, you can't remove the concept of psyches from the regulations.

Certainly, there are related concepts which can be confused with psyches, and it would be good if a clearer distinction was made. Examples include:

• genuine multi-way bids (such as the Gardner 1NT overcall)
  
• genuine mixed strategies (as part of an explicit or implicit partnership agreement)
  
• "controlled psyches" (this has nothing to do with psyches at all - as I see it the term is just a euphemism for "poorly disclosed partnership agreements")

But if you open 1♠ on a 2434 5-count playing SAYC with a pick-up partner, then that's a psyche. There's no other way to describe it.

[Double !]

mikestar, on Aug 11 2005, 03:14 PM, said:

In the ACBL, this is disallowed even on the Super Chart (insane, isn't it?)

It is not a controlled psychic, but transgresses the Super Chart requirement that for defenses to enemy natural openings that can show a one suiter, the suit must either be known or one of two possible suits. (So Garder where the suit is guaranteed to be a minor would be Super Chart legal.)

So, if the agreement were to be that, if the bid showed a weakish 1-suited hand or a strong NT, if the suit were defined as being one of the majors, are you saying that that aspect would satisfy superchart requirements (like I am ever likely to play in a superchart event)?

So the next issue would be the legality of either/ or conventions such as an opening 2D bid showing either a weak 2 in hearts or a strong 2 in another suit/ a strong 2bid in spades (see Ambra 2-bids). The discussion is probably moot at this point, at least for Gardener NT overcalls, but it interests me because the convention has been around for eons (well at least since the 60's, maybe earlier).
Ho Hum. I guess it's not such a big deal. But I suspect it fuels fire more for those of you who prefer relays and/or strong pass systems. I apologize for that.

DHL

[keylime]

Meckwell used to play Gardener 1NT.

I think it should be SuperChart.

[hrothgar]

keylime, on Aug 12 2005, 04:33 AM, said:

Meckwell used to play Gardener 1NT.

I think it should be SuperChart.

Meckwell plays a lot of stuff tat they don't allow other folks to use...

9-12 HCP NT openings being the most obvious example

[mikestar]

keylime, on Aug 12 2005, 01:33 AM, said:

Meckwell used to play Gardener 1NT.

I think it should be SuperChart.

Gardner was once Super Chart legal, the restrictive language is fairly recent. Meckwell likely stopped playing it when the ACBL outlawed it.

[mikestar]

Double !, on Aug 12 2005, 01:24 AM, said:

mikestar, on Aug 11 2005, 03:14 PM, said:

In the ACBL, this is disallowed even on the Super Chart (insane, isn't it?)

It is not a controlled psychic, but transgresses the Super Chart requirement that for defenses to enemy natural openings that can show a one suiter, the suit must either be known or one of two possible suits. (So Garder where the suit is guaranteed to be a minor would be Super Chart legal.)

So, if the agreement were to be that, if the bid showed a weakish 1-suited hand or a strong NT, if the suit were defined as being one of the majors, are you saying that that aspect would satisfy superchart requirements (like I am ever likely to play in a superchart event)?

So the next issue would be the legality of either/ or conventions such as an opening 2D bid showing either a weak 2 in hearts or a strong 2 in another suit/ a strong 2bid in spades (see Ambra 2-bids). The discussion is probably moot at this point, at least for Gardener NT overcalls, but it interests me because the convention has been around for eons (well at least since the 60's, maybe earlier).
Ho Hum. I guess it's not such a big deal. But I suspect it fuels fire more for those of you who prefer relays and/or strong pass systems. I apologize for that.

DHL

Yes. Gardener would be legal if it were stipulated that it would be a strong NT or a long major. At above the GCC level, normally the strong (15+ HCP) meanings of multi-way opening bids and overcalls are unrestricted and various restrictions apply to the weaker meanings.

[helene_t]

I never understood the concept of controlled psyches. Tend to agree with Richard but if someone could explain the concept to me I might change my mind, who knows.

In the Netherlands, it's a BSC: it does not promise a king more than average and it does not show a 4-card in a known suit. The BF allows it only in high-level teams events but some local clubs allow it too.

I never understood this "king more than average" either. To me it sounds as if ZAR users can play this convention while HCP users can't. There was an editorial about this issue in BW recently, I found it very confusing.

So in some countries it is allowed and in some it isn't and in some the rules have changed recently and in some it depends on the level and in some it depends on version of the convention and maybe in some it depends on the interpretation of the rules. Sigh.

[mikestar]

"Controlled psychic" does have meaning. Per the authority granted by the Laws, the ACBL has outlawed 1 level opeings with less than 8 HCP, even if natural, excepting the case of a psyche: a deliberate and gross misstatement or high card strength and/or suit length--the right to psyche is protected by the Laws.

So if I open 1♠ with 5 HCP and partner will bid as if I have at least 10 or 11 unless the auction proves that I can't have my bid (I pass an obviously forcing bid, the opponents try for slam, etc.) then this is a psyche--it is not a partnership agreement and in priciple partner will be as surprised as the enemy.

But if I open 1♠ with 5 HCP and partner can bid 3♣ to ask "do you really have a normal opener or do you have 3-6 points?" then opening on 5 is part of our partnership agreement and does not misstate high card strength or suit length--rather it is an illegal opening bid. Partner knows I may have 5 points and can use an asking bid to find out--he must be on much firmer groung than the enemy.

[helene_t]

I don't understand this. If I open 2♣ I show a GF hand but I might just for fun have opened 2♣ with a weak hand with diamonds. Partner can bid 2♦ (non-forcing) or something else (forcing) to find out. Everybody play this over here, it's just a convention.

Now if we said that it is in principle a GF hand but it might be a psyche, then we were misinforming the opps since it isn't a psyche, it's a bid with multiple meanings. We explain it as "either weak with diamonds, or any strong hand".

If I explain partner's 1♠ opening as "either 12+ with spades or 3-6 balanced" then it's not a controlled psyche, it's just a bid with multiple meanings. In this case it happens to be a HUM.

[Elianna]

helene_t, on Aug 11 2005, 11:21 PM, said:

I don't understand this. If I open 2♣ I show a GF hand but I might just for fun have opened 2♣ with a weak hand with diamonds. Partner can bid 2♦ (non-forcing) or something else (forcing) to find out. Everybody play this over here, it's just a convention.

Yes, but ACBL has you on that one: They've banned psyching artificial openings (so you can't psyche strong 2♣, for example).

[pclayton]

In acbl land, if you want to create a fun 2 way bid, use a double instead. Doubles are not restricted at all, as a matter of fact, a pair from LA uses a double in the direct seat to show 14+ or any single suited preempt.

And its totally GCC legal.

I guess the ACBL just hasn't gotten around to regulating doubles.

[Free]

As I interprete the rules, it seems like Gardener NT is a brown sticker convention. So it's banned from most tourneys all over the world anyway...

[Walddk]

Gardener's 1NT is also known as the "Comic 1NT". It's comic if you get away with it I suppose, and it's tragic if it costs 1100!

Roland