[xx1943]

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ T5 ♥ QJT42 ♦ AQ ♣ Q875

West North East South

---- ----- ---- 1♥
Pass 4NT Pass 5♣ .................4NT=RKCB 5♣= 1 or 4 keys (edited Al)
Pass 5♠ Pass ????

Hi all,
I thought the 5♠ has a clearcut meaning, but my partner had another opinion.
No good score for us, when he passed.

Al

[luke warm]

i don't understand 4nt unless it's rkc for hearts... i'd bid 6h

[POJC]

Whats 1/4 blackwood?

[xx1943]

POJC, on Aug 14 2005, 08:18 PM, said:

Whats 1/4 blackwood?

4NT = Blackwood RKC 5♣ = 1 or 4 Aces

Ty for the hint. I edited my original post.
Al

[Free]

First of all, opening this in a normal system isn't great.
Second, immediatly responding 4NT is 99.99% of the time AWEFUL.
Third, I don't understand the 5♠ bid completely, but still wouldn't pass!

What can 5♠ be???
- You don't ask for ♥Q while you don't have it
- You don't bid 5NT to ask for Kings
- Only thing left imo is that you want to play 5NT, and 5♠ is the only way to get there.

I'd bid 5NT.

[xx1943]

luke warm, on Aug 14 2005, 07:35 PM, said:

i don't understand 4nt unless it's rkc for hearts... i'd bid 6h

4NT is RCKB for hearts for sure. But maybe in MP 5NT is better than 5♥ missing 2 Aces and nothing else.
Imo it is totally impossible that NORTH has a long spade suit.
Al

[Double !]

good grief

(still feel that one should play kickback for hearts)

Couldn't P bid something else before bidding 4NT. Apparently didn't feel that it was necessary. When there has been no established fit, I play that we assume that the last naturally bid suit is trumps for the purpose of responding to RKC.
Partner took captaincy and ordered me to bid 5NT or else will have to walk the plank at sword-point. "Aye-aye (oy-oy) sir" 5NT

(A sea bird also landed on the table and bid 5NT. The director was called because this was a bid out of tern.)

DHL

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

5 NT.

Making an undiscused 5S in this kind of situation is
bound to lead to trouble.

If it should show long spades, he could have started
differently, the same holds true, if he now wants to
transfer to NT, i.e. 5S is a stupid bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[flytoox]

4N after 1H is not RKC, but plain blackwood. 5S is to play. Pd has sth like AKQJT9xxx, x, x, AK.

So pass after pd's 5S is right.

[Gerben42]

Sorry fly, but that is nonsense. With long ♠ you bid ♠ first.
The normal meaning of the bid is asking for Kings. I don't have any so I sign off in 6♥.

[flytoox]

Gerben42, on Aug 15 2005, 10:44 AM, said:

Sorry fly, but that is nonsense. With long ♠ you bid ♠ first.
The normal meaning of the bid is asking for Kings. I don't have any so I sign off in 6♥.

Gerben, think about it before you claim it is nonsense. If you have a good heart raise hand, why not show your support first and then bid 4N?

You may thinnk with the hand I gave you can alwasy start with 1S. Is it? Suppose the auction goes:


1H-1S
2D-3C
3H-3S
3N-???

What do you do now? If you bid 4N is it RKC, quantitative inv.? If you bid 4C/4D/4H, is it cue?

[Gerben42]

Quote

Gerben, think about it before you claim it is nonsense. If you have a good heart raise hand, why not show your support first and then bid 4N?

Because opponents might get in and find a save. The risk of this is much less if you don't have a huge fit in partner's suit.

Quote

1H-1S
2D-3C
3H-3S
3N-???

If a jump shift was strong, you could have responded 2♠, if a jump shift was weak, you can bid a forcing 3♠. Whatever happens, don't bid 4th suit if you already know where you are going.

[flytoox]

Gerben42, on Aug 15 2005, 11:23 AM, said:

if a jump shift was weak, you can bid a forcing 3♠. Whatever happens, don't bid 4th suit if you already know where you are going.

Who says 3S is forcing? Second, even if 3S is forcing, it doesnot show a solid suit.


As for the fear of save, I have no comments.

[flytoox]

Gerben, to add my nonsense, please check this out

http://www.prairiene.../bridge/rkc.htm


After you read this, please tell me who is making nonsense.


Regards

Hongjun

[flytoox]

Yet another place to find out who is right who is wrong


http://www.fifthchair.org/archive/conv/Rom...20Blackwood.pdf

[inquiry]

I don't think 4NT should be blackwood on this auctoin (nor Roman KeyCard Blackwood). It works very well as quantitative.

If you have hearts, start with your forcing raise (Jacoby 2NT if you play it), then 4NT. If you have spades, start 1S (or 2S if strong jumpshift), then 4th suit forcing (or two way checkback), then forcing spade rebid, then 4NT.

So 4NT-followed-by 5♠ is neither a big spade suit nor a big heart fit. So either way, I would bid 5NT.. had I bid 5Clubs... except, I would have passed 4NT, as I have no desire to continue over a natural invite.

[P_Marlowe]

flytoox, on Aug 15 2005, 07:15 AM, said:

Gerben, to add my nonsense, please check this out

http://www.prairiene.../bridge/rkc.htm


After you read this, please tell me who is making nonsense.


Regards

Hongjun

Hi,

Gerben is right => my answer of 5NT is wrong, it promises the
spade king.

Both documents deal only with the situation that the guy, who
uses RKCB, is interested in the Queen of trump.
There are case, when he is not interested, e.g. he knows there
exist a 10 card fit, in this case, he bids the next free suit, in
our case, that is 5S to ask for specific kings.

The sign of in 5NT is only needed, if the agreed suit is a minor.
In this case 5S asks partner to bid 5NT as the last exit below
slam.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Aug 15 2005, 12:32 PM, said:

I don't think 4NT should be blackwood on this auctoin (nor Roman KeyCard Blackwood). It works very well as quantitative.

If you have hearts, start with your forcing raise (Jacoby 2NT if you play it), then 4NT. If you have spades, start 1S (or 2S if strong jumpshift), then 4th suit forcing (or two way checkback), then forcing spade rebid, then 4NT.

So 4NT-followed-by 5♠ is neither a big spade suit nor a big heart fit. So either way, I would bid 5NT.. had I bid 5Clubs... except, I would have passed 4NT, as I have no desire to continue over a natural invite.

Ben, this cannot be right logically. If pd has heart support, then how on earth can he suddenly find 5N is better than 5H after 4N rkc? If he wants to sign off in 5N then 4N as rkc must be wrong.

[coyot]

flytoox, on Aug 15 2005, 06:13 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Aug 15 2005, 10:44 AM, said:

Sorry fly, but that is nonsense. With long ♠ you bid ♠ first.
The normal meaning of the bid is asking for Kings. I don't have any so I sign off in 6♥.

Gerben, think about it before you claim it is nonsense. If you have a good heart raise hand, why not show your support first and then bid 4N?

You may thinnk with the hand I gave you can alwasy start with 1S. Is it? Suppose the auction goes:


1H-1S
2D-3C
3H-3S
3N-???

What do you do now? If you bid 4N is it RKC, quantitative inv.? If you bid 4C/4D/4H, is it cue?

After the 3♣ and 3♥ bid, 3♠ says:
Partner, I have pretty good spades, good enough to make them trumps.

If you bid 4 in a minor after 3♥ instead, it is a slam try in hearts, wtp?

[flytoox]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 15 2005, 12:33 PM, said:

flytoox, on Aug 15 2005, 07:15 AM, said:

Gerben, to add my nonsense, please check this out

http://www.prairiene.../bridge/rkc.htm


After you read this, please tell me who is making nonsense.


Regards

Hongjun

Hi,

Gerben is right => my answer of 5NT is wrong, it promises the
spade king.

Both documents deal only with the situation that the guy, who
uses RKCB, is interested in the Queen of trump.
There are case, when he is not interested, e.g. he knows there
exist a 10 card fit, in this case, he bids the next free suit, in
our case, that is 5S to ask for specific kings.

The sign of in 5NT is only needed, if the agreed suit is a minor.
In this case 5S asks partner to bid 5NT as the last exit below
slam.

With kind regards
Marlowe

There are a few reason why it is wrong. If you need a specific king plus HQ to make a Heart slam, then 4N is certainly a wrong bid, even if it is RKC.


Second, as so often happens, never test your pd at bridge table. This is another example why 4N then 5S must be wrong except showing a long sapde suit. No matter what the right answer is(this is debatable clearly), there is a risk pd will misunderstand it.


Regards

Hongjun