[POJC]

The Zar calculator says it's game potential. So its just bad luck...

If one chooses to open wests hand (24/25 Zar points),which is borderline also in Zar. According to Zar easts hand should be upgraded with one for q Trump and 3 for fit points= 27. 27+ opening hand equals min 52=game...
So bad luck

west passes:
After east opens west has at least 24 Zar points. After east raises spades wests hand gets even better with 5 card spades and 2 trump honours. Honours in partners suit also counts a little. So at least 24+3 (5th trump)+2(trump honours)+1(honours in P suit)=30. Even with a light opening we should go game.
So bad luck

All in all conclusion is bad luck.
In real bridge(no hindsight) we would never have the tools to find out that our diamond honours are nearly worthless and that the honours are in the wrong suits.
Remove club queen and exchange Q of Diamonds with king (same Zar points) and we have 50% chance to make instead. This can not be estimated in real life. Everybody who says that they won't reach 4S is biding in hindsight and not like they would do at the table...

[coyot]

If you decide to open light in 3rd seat with such a bad hand (shape, no values in bid suit), pass the 1♠ response.

I see absolutely no need to raise. Your partner is a passed hand. What are the chances of you missing a 22 HCP game if you're balanced? You have the boss suit, so you can afford to pass - and compete later.

West, with his maximum hand and supposedly valuable QJ♦ is right to bid game.

[han]

Free, on Aug 9 2005, 03:47 PM, said:

Other: first West underbids by passing when opening light, and then jumps after a 3rd seat opening which might be light as well. Come on, get some discipline: open light, open solid, or react according to the seat where the opener is.

Yessir!

I think that my jump to game was a reaction to partner's raise, not partner's opening.

[coyot]

And I don't think I would have reached 4♠ at the table - and it is not hindsight.

If I want to open light in 3rd seat, it is safer to open 1♠ - we play Two Way Reverse Drury so partner bids 2♦ showing 4card limit raise and I correct to 2♠. The hand IS substandard opener, no doubt about that. Partner, with extremely good hand, may still bid a new help-suit with this shape - and we'll sign off in 3♠.

[luke warm]

i'd have passed east in 3rd seat (or opened it 1nt) but then i'd almost certainly pass 1S by west.. i have a sub minimum opening and partner is a passed hand? 1S seems enough, regardless of the outcome on any one hand

[helene_t]

It's funny, counting lost tricks suggests that West overbid but my intuitive judgement says that West should have opened and East should not.

East has a rule-of-15 opening but I see little point in opening this hand. Playing Drury I would prefer 1♠ to 1♦ if I really had to open, though.

After 1♠ was raised I don't think West can anticipate on a minimum opening by East unless you have some special agreements like
Pass-1♦
1♠-2♠
3♣orwhatever*
*asks if East has a real opening but if not, 3♠ might allready be too high.

So my conclusion is that the 2♠ bid shows a real opening. If you can't pass 1♠ with 4-card support, then you must play four card majors in 3rd seat. That's fine in this case because the diamonds are worse than the spades, but if the diamonds had been better I don't have a solution.

[hrothgar]

Hannie, on Aug 9 2005, 06:40 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

pass-1D
1S-2S
4S

Down one.

---

East-west open light.

For what its worth, here's the MOSCITO auction:

1♥ - (P) - 3♠

The West hand evaluates as a bare minimum 1♥ opening
(1♥ promises 4+ Spades, and ~9 - 14 HCP.
The opening also promises 6 slam points)

The 3 Spades response systemically shows 4 card trump support and ~6-10 HCP.
Some people MIGHT decide to treat the East hand as stronger, in which case they would have the option to bid 2NT showing 4 trumps and game invitational values. This hand is RIGHT on the boundry. The 2NT raise shows 7 losers and this evaluates as 7.5 or so...

Regardless, even if you do treat it as a game invite, you end up in 3♠...

I'll note once more that if you like opening this kind of dreck, you need a response strucutre that isn't going to hang you.

Going back to the original question: I think that it is losing bridge to force opener to pass with 4 card trump support and sub-minimum values. As Cascade noted "This is 2-handed bridge". The partnership has the entire three level to sort out ranges and explore for fits. They really might want to consider doing so on occasion...

[Gerben42]

Having played in a partnership with a similar style I will add my two cents that although West's hand has become quite good it is still only invitational in this style. For many other partnerships it would have been a clear 4♠ bid, but if you agree to a style, stick to it. This means West doesn't need a good hand to bid game unilaterally, West needs a great hand. This hand is just good.

Gerben42 - smirny auction (me in West):
P - 1♦ (in fact we rather open 1♣ with this distribution and 4 bad ♦)
1♠ - 2♠
2NT (relay) - 3♠ (minimum 4-card support, balanced)
Pass

with me in East (can't imagine smirny passing this):
1♠ - 2NT (invite+ 4+support)
3♣ (my hand is not any good) - 3♠ (too bad)
Pass

[EricK]

Playing "light" openings (as I understand the phrase) I would have opened the West hand.

Playing any sort of openings I don't think I would have opened 1♦ with the East hand. I prefer 1♣, 1♠ or even 1♥! I think the less pre-emptive a light 3rd seat opening is, the more lead directing it should be. In fact, on the assumption that partner was playing light openings, I probably wouldn't open the East hand at all.

I have some sympathy for the 4♠ jump, but assuming you have seen this partner's 3rd seat openings before it does look like an overbid. I suspect you made it because deep down you were worried that you underbid on the previous round.

Eric

[FrancesHinden]

EricK has said what I was about to.

Playing "light" openings I would have opened the West hand.

I would pass the East hand playing any sort of standard-ish methods. It's way off an opening bid vul even in 3rd seat. And where's the plus from opening xxxx in diamonds?

While I agree that it is normal to raise a 1S response with any hand including four trumps, I would be tempted to call the 1D opening a psyche and pass the 1S bid.

p.s.

Quote

Finally what the heck is an opening bid and what is a response?
Example 99.99% any 11 hcp in first, second and third seat any vul?

Nothing like 99.99%. Nothing remotely like. Look at a world championship book and look at how many people playing some form of standard system (2/1, SAYC, Acol - anything that isn't strong club/diamond or totally artificial) open balanced 11-counts. When you've done that, look carefully at every balanced 11-count, opened or not, and see how often the choice of whether to open had an impact on the result and with what result. If you want to be really clever, then miss out hands where the result was essentially random (e.g. you are bound to end in 3NT on an uncontested auction with Ax opposite Qx and it makes if the K is on lead).

[Led]

ok for East to open , but then a pass over 1♠ is obligatory with this bad hand

Edouard

[han]

Playing light openings I would have opened the east hand

Playing very sound openings I would have opened the east hand!!

After all, in that case west can still have a reasonable hand. Playing light openings there is far less reason to open the east hand. The lighter you open in 1st and 2nd suit, the less light do you need to open in 3rd seat. I would only open light in 3rd seat if I have a suit, I see no use to opening on xxxx.

For the raise the argument is similar. If partner couldn't even make a light opening bid, why would you raise with this crummy hand?

[mike777]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 10 2005, 07:05 AM, said:

p.s.

Quote

Finally what the heck is an opening bid and what is a response?
Example 99.99% any 11 hcp in first, second and third seat any vul?

Nothing like 99.99%. Nothing remotely like. Look at a world championship book and look at how many people playing some form of standard system (2/1, SAYC, Acol - anything that isn't strong club/diamond or totally artificial) open balanced 11-counts. When you've done that, look carefully at every balanced 11-count, opened or not, and see how often the choice of whether to open had an impact on the result and with what result. If you want to be really clever, then miss out hands where the result was essentially random (e.g. you are bound to end in 3NT on an uncontested auction with Ax opposite Qx and it makes if the K is on lead).

Thanks for feedback and your suggestion to go through the championship books.

I am reading the new 2004 now. Read the old ones in the past.

Yes, in this style of lite openings I am opening 11 hcp balanced hands in first, second and third seat with a logical follow up style.

Yes, I knew this was not standard as I never used to open this junk.

My impressions, perhaps biased, is this seems to make much of the rest of the bidding easier for me especially in contested auctions. The reason is I need to balance less haven gotten my hand off my chest. Second it makes getting to those low hcp games a bit easier.

Now if I could just play half as well as these world champs I would make some of these contracts.

btw these guys and gals seem to contest these actions on very borderline to nothing hands, wow.

btw2 so far some of these italian auctions are amazing, they seem to get every 5 level decision right so far.

[inquiry]

West surely had a first seat pass. I have absolutely no problem with that.

One diamond in third seat (especially vul) is not for everyone. Let's start wtih the obvious, EAST hand is not an opening bid in 1st, 2nd or 4th seat (well in 4th some would if they count pearson points -- you know who you are). In third seat, it a judgement call. Would opening make it a tad more difficult for your opponents, but on the down side, you really don't want partner to lead a diamond. But still opening 1♦ as Rich and a few others have said is not horrible (in fact, I could easily decide to do so based upon a number of factors.. system opponents are playing, state of the match).

Clearly 1S is right bid over 1D so we skip ahead to 2S rebid. What do you play that shows, and after your partner bids 1S is all hope of a vulnerable game gone?

Lets begin with the last question. The answer to that is no. Partner passed with three points in diamonds (QJ), if he had Kx instead, game is nearly 50% (diamond ACE onsides and reasonable breaks in the other suits (3C, 4S, 1D, 1H, 1H ruff). You could in theory draw up some additional hands which West couldn't open in which game would have a good chance. Say six spades, 4H, 1D, and 2c, something like.. S-KJxxxx xxxx x Kx with this time the heart ace onsides.

So once you agree that even opposite a passed hand, vul imp game is not out of the question, you can raise. This raise, however requires you to admit to yourself your hand is an opening bid. The spade fit and ruffing value in clubs it has just become one of sorts, so I agree with 2♠.

Quite frankly, over 2♠, I think anyone who believes VUL they would not bid 4♠ is not being honest. West hand is great for t his auction. "Fitting diamonds" (oh no... that diamond bid bites us in the rear), a fifth spade, good values. This hand soars by ZAR counts... It gets two points for diamond QJ (And they are no longer devaluated for being in short suit), it gets to 27 ZAR fit points. At this vul, game has to be bid.

So if someone is to blame it is EAST. He made an iffy judgement to open (passing or bidding seems a toss up), and then he made an iffy judgment to raise (the spade fit actually makes his hand a minimum opening, but his partner couldn't open, so there is an arguement to be happy to have not passed it out. On the other hand, game is not impossible, and 2S has "preemptive" values here). All in all, I think this is closer to unlucky than huge error, but since WEST did nothing wrong, EAST gets whatever blame that needs to be spread around. Although I think there isn't a lot to be issued. This hand is somewhat unlucky in my opinion.

BTW, this hand looks very familiar, I think I was either east or west on it.


Ben

[Walddk]

The issue is: if you decide to open light 3rd in hand, at least have a suit! I still claim that West had a clear raise to game. Light and xxxx must be out of the question.

Roland

[han]

Ben, you were not one of the players, I was west and east was my f2f partner.

[mikeh]

inquiry, on Aug 10 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

Clearly 1S is right bid over 1D so we skip ahead to 2S rebid. What do you play that shows, and after  your partner bids 1S is all  hope of a vulnerable game gone?

Lets begin with the last question. The answer to that is no. Partner passed with three points in diamonds (QJ), if he had Kx instead, game is nearly 50% (diamond ACE onsides and reasonable breaks in the other suits (3C, 4S, 1D, 1H, 1H ruff). You could in theory draw up some additional hands which West couldn't open in which game would have a good chance. Say six spades, 4H, 1D, and 2c, something like.. S-KJxxxx xxxx  x Kx  with this time the heart ace onsides.

The examples you gave do not work for me. Change the ♦QJ to Kx, and west has a 1♠ opening. Change his hand to KJxxxx and an outside (non-stiff) K, and he has a weak two-bid.

However, your broader point has validity: it is possible to construct hands on which game is reasonable: AJ10xx Axxx x xxx is one on which we would all lke to reach 4♠.

Part of the solution lies in East's poor choice of opening. Opposite a 1♠ opener, my example would (should) force to game.

However, the mere fact that it is possible to construct hands on which game is okay does not mean that we have to reach game every time such hand exists! You will drive yourself, and your partners and teammates nuts if you base your approach to bidding on the idea that you have to reach every magic-fit game. All bidding systems should be based on consistency of application. This is otherwise known as discipline. While game is theoretically possible, it rates to be unlikely, and east may have already won the board by opening!

Stay within the confines of your methods. If you are dissatified with your results, change the methods: eg: on this hand open 1♠ in 3rd chair

[Double !]

inquiry, on Aug 10 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

West surely had a first seat pass. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Partner passed with three points in diamonds (QJ), if he had Kx instead, game is nearly 50% (diamond ACE onsides and reasonable breaks in the other suits (3C, 4S, 1D, 1H, 1H ruff).

Wouldn't changing the QJ of diamonds to Kx change the quality of the hand overall, like to 26 Zars and 7-losers? I suspect that many more players might not pass such a hand. Whatcha think?

DHL

[000002]

Dealer: West
Vul: Both
Scoring: MP

♠ KJxxx ♠ QT9x
♥ 10xx ♥ QJx
♦ QJ ♦ KT9x
♣ KQx ♣ Ax

NOW, east can open " normally", but 4S DOWN
another example:

♠ KJxxx ♠ QT9x
♥ 10xx ♥ QJx
♦ QJ ♦AKT9
♣ KQx ♣ Jx

tender 4s too
for why? many junk there.
But,if u are west,would u like to seek game? or leap to ?

[han]

Double !, on Aug 10 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 10 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

West surely had a first seat pass. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Partner passed with three points in diamonds (QJ), if he had Kx instead, game is nearly 50% (diamond ACE onsides and reasonable breaks in the other suits (3C, 4S, 1D, 1H, 1H ruff).

Wouldn't changing the QJ of diamonds to Kx change the quality of the hand overall, like to 26 Zars and 7-losers? I suspect that many more players might not pass such a hand. Whatcha think?

DHL

Absolutely, would have opened with Kx of diamonds instead of QJ doubleton.