[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1NT   Pass
 Pass  2♥    Pass  Pass
 2♠    3♦    Dbl   3♥
 Pass  Pass  Dbl   Pass
 Pass  Pass  

MY OP: it is no fair open with 5 major without alert....
sceptic: 1nt = 15 - 17 can have 5 card major I did not think it was alertable
sceptic: if you think I have been unfair ask director I am happy if they adjust but it is normal I believe
MY OP: it is only your opinion
sceptic: I am no expert, if I have done the wrong thing ask director, I wont argue their decision
sceptic: neither of us stated a system at start of the game
MY OP: no, bu I make you black right now
sceptic: why I have not done anything wrong

CHAT TO TD from me: my opps are upset with me, they think I was unfair not to alert a 1nt opening with a 5 card major is that right?
THE TD: !H!S Please do not call TD/TD's to the Table for adjustments. !H!S
no other response from TD

neither of us stated a system at the start of the game, I do not think my p spoke english, I had polish opps playing polish club


Should I have alerted the 1NT opener ?

Should the director have responded to me ??

should I even bother calling the director?

[P_Marlowe]

Did not get North, what he deserved?
Bidding with 5-4 on the 3 level?

Was he unhappy, that East was able to teach him a lesson?
North should ask East about his bank account and fee per seession
and should send him the fee and lots of flowers, because he should
be grateful.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

Looks like North failed to realize his partner was broke when he bid 3♦.
1NT was crazy but happened to work well on this hand even though the ♠ fit was missed initially.

You should not have alerted your opening bid as you did not have an AGREEMENT with partner to open 1NT with a 5-card major.

[P_Marlowe]

sceptic, on Aug 8 2005, 06:37 AM, said:

P Marlowe sorry I was editing the post I did not complete it before posting

Hi,

that's ok, I understood the E-Mail, it doesnt
change my response.

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

sceptic, on Aug 8 2005, 06:41 AM, said:

Quote

1NT was crazy

Can you explain why please, I do not think it was crazy at all

One reason: You are 5-4 in the mayors, which makes
1 NT highly unattractive.

Marlowe

[Brandal]

sceptic, on Aug 8 2005, 06:37 AM, said:

P Marlowe sorry I was editing the post I did not complete it before posting

Seems to me opps thinks you should tell
them you have AKTxx in hearts before N
bids.

I doubt "may contain 5M" would stop them,
N would just assume that might be spades.

It's the "bad result=complain" syndrome

[Fluffy]

Whatever wayne, just be happy that you will probably won't meet again that guy. They have catched me many times for not asking if 5cM is possible because I just assume it is not (its the way its played by 97% of spannish), all the times it was my fault.

[Free]

Dunno why anyone would ever open 1NT with the East hand, since you can easily reverse without lying about anything. It's losing bridge, but it worked out on this hand because North is crazy as well.

This said and done, you're allowed to deviate from your system, so you'll never get an adjusted score. Opening 1NT with a 5 card Major is not alertable, since 5332's are balanced (5422's are not btw, and if you do this regularly you should alert as "possible semi-balanced"). But many Poles just don't expect a 5 card M with a 1NT opener. That's not our fault...

[joker_gib]

sceptic, on Aug 8 2005, 01:41 PM, said:

Quote

1NT was crazy

Can you explain why please, I do not think it was crazy at all

Because you have enough to reverse and therefore you can describe your hand pretty naturally by opening 1♥ and rebiding 2♠

Alain

[Gerben42]

Before I say why think 1NT is crazy let's make this clear:

I think that opening 1NT with 5♥ is okay.
I think that opening 1NT on some 5422 hands is okay.

So now why I think this 1NT opener is crazy:

5-4 majors has many disadvantages.

1) You have the majors, you are not preempting the opponents but your partner

2) Opening a major does not give up playing in NT, opening 1NT sometimes gives up playing in a major.

3) Big points in opening 1NT with 5♥332 is to preempt the ♠ suit and to solve a rebid problem after 1♥ - 1♠. These are invalid if you hold the ♠ yourself.

Must be this modern thing of people misdescribing 16-counts rather than bidding where they live.

Notice btw that Nunes - Fantoni, who open 1NT on anything that looks remotely like an 1NT opener, specifically exclude 5-4 majors (it's 12-14 but the same idea is valid for 15-17)

[Gerben42]

Quote

This said and done, you're allowed to deviate from your system, so you'll never get an adjusted score. Opening 1NT with a 5 card Major is not alertable, since 5332's are balanced (5422's are not btw, and if you do this regularly you should alert as "possible semi-balanced"). But many Poles just don't expect a 5 card M with a 1NT opener. That's not our fault...

That's not their fault either. In Polish Club there is less need for this as responses to the limited 1-bids need not be made on junk in fear of missing game. Another corollary is that the auction 1♥ - 1♠ - 2NT can and will be weaker than most players are used to.

This however is a typical situation of "you made a bid I do not agree with so you must have been at fault for my bad score", which is a completely different thing.

[helene_t]

If you frequently open 1NT with funny shapes, you should probably make sure that opps are informed. But since you played with an unknown p there is probably nothing to alert. Also, the fact that North bid as he did was not caused by your non-alert of 1NT. A 1NT-opening that may conttain a five-card major is certainly not alertable unless the tournament rules say it is.

Maybe you should have alerted your double of 3♦. Did it show spade support by agreement? 3♠ seems more natural.

I might have opened this hand 1NT as well, I don't think it's strong enough for a reverse. Open 1♥ is fine too, you would have to rebid either 2♣ or 2♠, or maybe pass, if partner bids 1NT. (Hardy recomended that responder be allowed to bid 1♠ on a 3-card, with that agreement 1♥ is more atractive).

[Gerben42]

Respond 1♠ on 3-card suit? On what hand type would that be? Auctions that start 1♥ - 1♠ are not the strength of a natural system, having more of them doesn't sound like a good idea.

[helene_t]

Gerben42, on Aug 8 2005, 02:18 PM, said:

Respond 1♠ on 3-card suit? On what hand type would that be? Auctions that start 1♥ - 1♠ are not the strength of a natural system, having more of them doesn't sound like a good idea.

Something like sss-h-ddd-cccccc. You would rather have partner support spades than have him rebid diamonds which can be a 3-card. Or sss-h-ddddd-cccc.

I'm not defending this point of view, just mentioning it.

But maybe this isn't really related to the issue of how to bid the East hand.....

[TheoKole]

Opening 1NT with a 5 card major is perfectly acceptable and legal, I regularly open 1NT with 5 ♥ if it will cause a rebid problem by opening 1 ♥ instead.

MUCH rarer is opening 1NT with 5 ♠ or offshape 2-2-3-6 for example but I have done both if my spades are VERY weak (23456 for example) or I have a rebid problem with long ♣ or long ♦.

If the opponents ASK my partner tells them, yes we DO open 1NT with a 5 card major if there is a rebid problem however an alert (could have a 5 card major) isn't necessary in my opinion or I presume in the by-laws.

Just because your opponent assumed that you wouldn't open with a 5 card major (probably because he never has) isn't your problem.

Cheers

[luis]

I have some different views:
I don't think 1NT is crazy, I don't think it's crazy at all.
I don't think you have enough for a reverse, I would find a reverse exotic with that hand.
I don't think you have to alert anything even if you agree with your pd that 1NT can have a 5 card major. They can always ask about that, otherwiser a 1NT opening should be alerted as:

"15-17, 14 good is ok, 18 never, can have 5 card major but usually not 54 in both majors, 6322 is fine with a minor, with a bad major he did that once, maybe also 5422 and some 4441 or 5431 with a singleton ace or K"

I think your opponents bid badly and now try to blame the 1NT opening as many players usually do. They must learn to lose before they can win.

Luis

[Double !]

I am not an expurt on the rules, but I do not believe that you did anything wrong.

The acbl GCC states "a notrump opening or overcall is natural if not unbalanced (generally, no singleton or void and only one or two doubletons)." So, IMO, your bid fell within the acbl GCC definition of a natural NT opening. (Had this been an established partnership, then some form of pre-alert that NT openings "might be off-shape" might be appropriate.)

The TD's responsibilities when called to the table are to establish the facts of the situation, to determine whether or not any infraction (according to the rules of the sponsor and sanctioner of the event) have occurred, and then to make any appropriate rulings and/or determinations based upon the above. It is not the TD's responsibility to make judgments and determinations based upon whether or not the TD agrees with someone's bid or play unless either was done in an inappropriate manner (example: significant break in tempo). IMO, the TD was way off base in this case, the TD's comment to you of " 'H'S" was not appropriate.

My understanding is that a TD should be contacted as soon as a potential problem or conflict arises in accordance with established rules and procedures. Failure to contact a TD at the appropriate time can result in your loss of rights should the board subsequently be contested.

I hope the above is reasonably accurate. If not, I am sure someone will quickly make a statement to that effect.

DHL

[hrothgar]

Comment the first: I don't like the 1NT opener. For what its worth, my primary objection is not the shape, but rather the strength. This evaluates as an 18.2 HCP hand, and strikes me as too strong for a 15-17 NT opening. Weaken the hand slightly and I might chose 1N as the "smallest" lie.

Comment the second: What I think of the 1NT opening is immaterial to the ruling. Players are allowed to misbid, make "bad" bids, and psyche. On occasion, the quality of a bid will have an impact on a ruling. This is not one of those times.

Comment the third: Your opponent went completely off the deep end

[keylime]

Your ops cranked and got a bad result.

The TD should be strongly sanctioned.

Frankly they both need to suck it up and get over it. It happens. It's a fix.

I recommend therapy based on frequent Skittles consumption and Battlestar Galactica viewing.

[the hog]

Wayne, I don't think opening 1NT is crazy. Personally with this hand I wouldn't do it - I try to avoid it if I have 2X decent 4 card Majors. You hand is just a tad shy of being able to reverse, the way I play, and I admit that there are a number of auctions where I will find it hard to describe my point count. However I can see why you opened 1N on this balanced hand and I know many good players who would do likewise. I assume that with 5S and 4H you would have opened 1S as you have an easy rebid.

I think your opponent behaved miserably. If the opps were playing Polish C as you say, their behaviour is even more reprehensible, as opening 1NT with a 5 card M is pretty much standard in that system, despite what Gerben and Free have posted. Look at Matula's book, where he even describes a relay to find the 5 card H suit, (the relay can't find 5S). Also look at Balicki's system card and those of Kwiecken and Polytelo for example; they all play 5 card Ms allowed in the 1NT opening. Maybe the average Pole on bbo doesn't, but tough luck.

To me it sounds like your opponent was upset at his own poor bidding and trying to take it out on you. To answer your question, no it is not alertable and no I wouldn't have called the td, I would have been a little more blunt with my opponent.