[Fluffy]

Gerben42, on Aug 7 2005, 06:25 PM, said:

Oh well... I was hoping some of the other decisions would also bring up more discussion. It is of course clear what went wrong (East, with 7♥, thought like the panel that pass was out, and got punished for it)

I personally agree that 6NT was by far the worst. Didn't mind to receive the top but when asked I didn't think it was an outrageous bid.

3♥ is very poor, its such bad bid that I would really want to call it the worst bid (specially so I can break the consensous ), but 6NT is so horrible that I cannot live with it.

[the hog]

3H is an overbid, but is bid under pressure. 6NT is totally ridiculous.

[temp3600]

pbleighton, on Aug 7 2005, 05:37 PM, said:

"3H is game force, it does not show a "weak hand". It does not promise a weak hand, show a weak hand or infer a weak hand OK? Yes, partner is bidding under great pressure so let us cut them some slack, but a weak hand, never."

It is a game force, but it may be a hand with a long suit and no outside defense, as is the case here.  This hand is marginal, but 3H is not a bad bid. Pass would not have been bad, either.  If you bid 3H, then you have to pull partner's double.

BTW, I agree that 4H instead of 3H has merit.

Peter

I think it is a bad idea to include in the 3♥ bid hands with just a long suit and little defense. It seems way simpler and also better structured (to me ) to bid those hands with an immediate 4♥, and keep 3♥ for good game-forcing hands, either with a self-sufficient heart suit, or a decent suit and a hand still unsure about the strain.

Another point. NS are vulnerable here and EW are not. I think this explains opener's double (at matchpoints) because he otherwise has a poor hand, way too offensive, to double. Now if we consider that responder is removing this double, which seemed like a good score already, with a hand good enough to bid a game forcing 3H on the previous turn, it is, as awm said in his post, a clear slam try. The doubleton HK is a great card, and 6NT to protect the CK (and since it's matchpoints), doesn't sound unreasonable, if maybe a little aggressive.

[mike777]

temp3600, on Aug 7 2005, 10:00 PM, said:

Another point. NS are vulnerable here and EW are not. I think this explains opener's double (at matchpoints) because he otherwise has a poor hand, way too offensive, to double. Now if we consider that responder is removing this double, which seemed like a good score already, with a hand good enough to bid a game forcing 3H on the previous turn, it is, as awm said in his post, a clear slam try. The doubleton HK is a great card, and 6NT to protect the CK (and since it's matchpoints), doesn't sound unreasonable, if maybe a little aggressive.

All of these are wonderful points to pass 4H and get a plus score at MP yes?
6nt seems like shooting for a top or playing pard for a perfect hand?

btw perhaps this was a short BBO MP match and shooting for tops is winning bbo bridge?

[han]

1D and 4H are impeccable. I think that 3H is not good, but 6NT is truly awful.

[helene_t]

If 3♥ is nfb then it's clearcut. Now dbl is fine (allthough 4♥ by West would not be unreasonable). 4♥ by East is questionable and 6NT can only be explained by West not playing NFB.

If 3♥ is GF then 3♥ is an overbid. Dbl is clearcut and 4♥ is ok. 6NT .... it is reasonable to make some kind of slam try. Maybe it was possible to do so in a more scientific way.

[flytoox]

pbleighton, on Aug 7 2005, 10:37 PM, said:

"3H is game force, it does not show a "weak hand". It does not promise a weak hand, show a weak hand or infer a weak hand OK? Yes, partner is bidding under great pressure so let us cut them some slack, but a weak hand, never."

It is a game force, but it may be a hand with a long suit and no outside defense, as is the case here. This hand is marginal, but 3H is not a bad bid. Pass would not have been bad, either. If you bid 3H, then you have to pull partner's double.

BTW, I agree that 4H instead of 3H has merit.

Peter

If you have a long suit without defensive strength, then you should jump to 4H rather than bid 3H and rebid 4H.

[mikeh]

I was an early poster on this thread and had some strong language for 6N.

The more I look at this hand, and read the posts, the more it seems to me that the real root of the problem was the double of 3♠.

I have not changed my opinion that 6N was awful, but I appreciate the dilemma facing west at his final turn. As several posters have pointed out, 6N might be cold... and note that it had play on the actual hand.

However, 6N was a hideously unilateral bid. Maybe slam might make, but that slam might have been in ♥..... give east void AQJxxxx xxx Axx for example, and 6N requires a minor miracle in ♦ but 6♥ is laydown.

The double was no doubt tempting but surely a 4♥ raise was a better partnership bid. Yes, you have extra hcp, but the Kx ♣ should be discounted, notwithstanding the example I just gave. And the lack of the expected 3rd trump also helps justify the downgrade.

Finally, I concur with an earlier post that Axxx is a bad penalty holding, especially with kx♣.

Double, for me, would show a fundamentally different hand..... primarily defensive, while this one is, outside of the ♣, a pure offensive hand.

Put another way: with Axxx Kx AK10xx xx, 4♥ would be clear.

So it was the double that created the (foreseeable) dilemma that led to the hideous 6N bid

[FrancesHinden]

Gerben42, on Aug 7 2005, 12:00 PM, said:

Which of the following bids do you disagree with?

Scoring: MP

---

Auction:
1♦ (3♣) 3♥ (3♠)
Dbl (Pass) 4♥ (Pass)
6NT

1♦ - Impeccable
3♥ - I don't like this (unless it's non-forcing); I would bid 4H. West has played East for a better hand later in the auction, so at least some of the problem is that they haven't agreed on what a 3H bid looks like.
Dbl - I don't like this. I'd be more interested in a heart slam than a penalty out of 3S. Give partner a more normal forcing 3H bid: x AQJxxx Qxx Axx and the grand is very good. I know that makes the opponents' bidding insane, but we generally trust partner rather than opponents. I would prefer a forcing pass over 3S.
4♥ - this is fine. No defence at all.
6NT - this isn't the worse bid by a long way (I think 3H and dbl are worse) but it does show a certain amount of disagreement about what a forcing 3H bid looks like. West was entitled to believe the hearts would run, and he wanted to protect the CK.