[candybar]

sceptic, on Aug 13 2005, 02:16 PM, said:

As for setting standards for TD's online, do it and 90% of all the free tourneys would stop... who wants that?  NOT ME.

I totally disagree with this. I sincerely believe that if we had standards, the TDs that currently run tournaments would make the effort to learn what they need to know, and continue running tournaments.

I also think it is a very sad commentary on the state of BBO tournaments that you believe 90% of the free tournaments on BBO are run by TDs who couldn't meet minimum standards of directing. And remember, the problem is not limited to free tournaments, either.

Personally, I think you are wrong. If you want to make rough guesses, I'd guess about half the TDs running free tournaments know what they are doing quite well. The other half should learn or stop running tournaments and causing the type of problems that keep being posted here.

Walddk, on Aug 13 2005, 02:49 PM, said:

Accept the rulings that are made no matter how horrible they are, or stop playing tourneys if you can't live with the rulings.

I don't want to stop playing in tournaments, and I don't want to accept horrible rulings either. We don't have to do that in live bridge, why should we here? There must be a better way.

[Walddk]

candybar, on Aug 13 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

I don't want to stop playing in tournaments, and I don't want to accept horrible rulings either. We don't have to do that in live bridge, why should we here? There must be a better way.

Certainly. Do you have time to teach and/or educate them? And if you have, do you think thay can be bothered? The answer is depressing I predict.

Roland

[candybar]

Walddk, on Aug 13 2005, 05:19 PM, said:

candybar, on Aug 13 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

I don't want to stop playing in tournaments, and I don't want to accept horrible rulings either.  We don't have to do that in live bridge, why should we here?   There must be a better way.

Certainly. Do you have time to teach and/or educate them? And if you have, do you think thay can be bothered? The answer is depressing I predict.

Roland

Yes, I have time to teach TDs, I do it already in live bridge. Yes, they will be 'bothered' if there is BBO support for standards of knowledge to run tournaments.

[Walddk]

candybar, on Aug 14 2005, 12:43 AM, said:

Yes, I have time to teach TDs, I do it already in live bridge. Yes, they will be 'bothered' if there is BBO support for standards of knowledge to run tournaments.

In that case I suggest that you write an e-mail to support@. I can't imagine that they would not consider your offer.

Roland

[luke warm]

personally, i usually am critical of those tds who act as if they know what they're doing and their rulings make it plain that they don't, and the ones who just don't seem to care whether they're right or wrong... the good ones, or at least those who are trying to be good ones, ask questions... look at jilly's posts, for example... it's obvious to me that she really wants answers to her questions

Quote

As for setting standards for TD's online, do it and 90% of all the free tourneys would stop... who wants that? NOT ME

'as for setting standards for school teachers, do it and 90% of them would go on strike... who wants that?'

'As for setting standards for _________, do it and 90% of _________ would stop... who wants that? NOT ME'

either a thing is objectively right to do or it isn't... either it's possible or it isn't.. if it's both right and possible, at least attempt it... now it's possible to argue about whether or not what's 'right' is objective or subjective... that's a different kettle of fish... i'd like to hear why it's *wrong* to have standards

fear of the result is rarely a good reason to refuse to do something that is right, imo

[candybar]

sceptic, on Aug 13 2005, 08:24 PM, said:

I have no desire to be a competant TD, but I do enjoy running the odd quickie tourney

If the opportunity were offered to make you into a competent TD, would you take it?
If it meant, say for example, 3 1-hour sessions in a chat room, would you make the effort to come?

[jillybean]

Thanks for the plug "Those TD's" don't read this forum and so that leaves the TD's who do try to do a good job reading all the **** about how badly tournaments are run.

Constructive criticism is of course most welcome

[the hog]

Before anyone takes you up on this Candybar, it might be advisable to post your qualifications.

[candybar]

The_Hog, on Aug 13 2005, 09:56 PM, said:

Before anyone takes you up on this Candybar, it might be advisable to post your qualifications.

I will certainly provide my credentials to BBO support if they request it.

I'm more concerned about whether there will be enough motivation to get people to come and learn. It's pretty depressing to give a class and nobody attends. I would do this only if there were some BBO support to convince TDs it was worth their time.

For general information though, I am just a plain ole ACBL Certified Director with more than 20 years experience directing live games. I also have extensive teaching experience in several diverse fields. If you or someone else feels better qualified, please signify by saying, "I volunteer", and I'll be delighted to help you. Until then, I feel comfortably qualified to do it.

[bendare]

Right on, Candy!!

I couldn't agree with you more. Keep up the good work.

[coyot]

I would not really care if 90% of the tournaments disappeared.
I think that pretty soon, a good half of them would be back.

My guess is that at least 50% of the problems with TDs are caused by lack of knowledge. Since online bridge prevents a lot of problems (revokes, out of turn bids, insufficient bids, wrong leads etc.), the knowledge needed for TD shrinks to a small portion of the f2f TD. The TD basically needs to know the following:

1) wrong claims and how to handle them (pick basically any line of play that is not nonsensical. The only details are i.e. is crossruff obvious or not?

2) Non-alerted bids - judging whether it caused any damage and adjusting

3) Use of UI (which narrows to hesitation here)

4) General behaviour issues (i.e. refusing to explain bids as above)

Add anything I left out... And ask yourself - is it so hard it would scare out anyone good from the 90%? (I really don't mind the systematically bad TDs to leave...)

[jillybean]

coyot, on Aug 14 2005, 02:44 AM, said:

Add anything I left out... And ask yourself - is it so hard it would scare out anyone good from the 90%? (I really don't mind the systematically bad TDs to leave...)

5) Make decisions under strict time constraints (Minutes)

6) Communicate with people not speaking your language.

7) Have knowledge of multiple different bidding systems.

8) Find suitable subs for people who have fallen off their chair or walked out of the building all together.

[Echognome]

Just a thought to throw out there. Suppose there was a BBO TD qualification test online. I know there are a couple of tests out there for TD's already. When BBO members request the right to host tournaments they take this test. Even if they can go through and retake it, at least it makes them read through it and see why they were right or wrong.

Then you can go down one of a couple avenues. One method is just that TDs that passed the test (or passed X many tests) are given a certain marking on their username whether this be a colour or a small symbol or whatever is not important. Thus, anyone that wants to play in a tournament will know if that TD has received this online qualification.

Another route that might be good is that ONLY those members that have passed the qualification test may offer a public tournament. Those that have not may have a private tournament, but ONLY under the conditions that they will not get any reprieve from BBO when playing in them (except for the general problems of abuse).

The advantage of this system is that the set up costs are a one time affair and I believe rather minimal. Also, I'm guessing that it might be a reasonably fun tasks for some TDs to set the problems. However, who the ultimate arbitor on the questions will be is somewhat vague.

The potential disadvantage is that someone may be able to pass the qualification simply by memorising the answers or taking the test multiple times. If it means that the member reads the answers and learns from them, I cannot see this being a problem. Also, it may not be a very good way of distinguishing between good and bad TDs.

Having run a few tournaments myself, I can understand the thankless part of the job hosting free tournaments and my goal is not to make it less attractive to do so. However, it can potentially be a step in educating TDs and making a happier bridge environment for everyone.

[candybar]

jillybean2, on Aug 14 2005, 08:38 AM, said:

5) Make decisions under strict time constraints (Minutes)

6) Communicate with people not speaking your language.

7) Have knowledge of multiple different bidding systems.

8) Find suitable subs for people who have fallen off their chair or walked out of the building all together.

These things are not particularly relevant to the discussion of TDs who know the Laws, but more to the TDing process. I addressed a couple of them in the TD Wish List, such as delayed results and a tournament management window to help speed things up.

However, to address your points,

jillybean2, on Aug 14 2005, 08:38 AM, said:

5) Make decisions under strict time constraints (Minutes)

Thorough knowledge of the Laws will help with this.

jillybean2, on Aug 14 2005, 08:38AM, said:

6) Communicate with people not speaking your language.

There is nothing you can do about this except restrict your tournaments to those who speak languages that you or your co-TDs do.

jillybean2, on Aug 14 2005, 08:38, said:

7) Have knowledge of multiple different bidding systems.

General familiarity with the main bidding systems and conventions is helpful, but not critical. A knowledgeable TD can apply the Laws without having to know the details of a system.

jillybean2, on Aug 14 2005, 08:38, said:

8) Find suitable subs for people who have fallen off their chair or walked out of the building all together.

This is a function of the software and at the moment is quite useable, not much of a problem in my experience.

[jillybean]

sigh

[candybar]

sceptic, on Aug 14 2005, 09:23 AM, said:

...  run a tourney as a competant TD and get some one like me that does not mind doing the odd tourney and I can get subs, help out etc etc and leave the technical stuff to the experts and perhaps learn in the process.

I like this idea! Perhaps we could put some organization in place so the more experienced and knowledgeable TDs could sort of mentor others and get some help in running tourneys at the same time.

[candybar]

jillybean2, on Aug 14 2005, 09:43 AM, said:

sigh

jilly, I am not in any way trying to belittle you. You are one of the TDs who is actually here and participating in this discussion, and that alone speaks quite well of you.

It would be helpful, though, if you could support the general idea of better education for TDs, and try to sort out how best to do it. I have a hard time telling why you seem opposed to the whole idea.

[jillybean]

If a person wants help it is readily available, there are MANY people willing and able to help. I don’t see a large number of TD’s asking for training, nor a large number of people complaining about TD’s - they are a minority.

I am opposed to unnecessary organizations and ‘rating systems’ - to me they appear to be just another way for people with over inflated ego’s to compete with others over inflated ego’s.

And no, you have not endeared yourself to me with comments such as…

“Here's another example of a really poor TD.”
“Lazy TDs ..”
“Ignorant TDs……”

I am enjoying running tournaments very much. I would hate to see more contraints introduced, the existing BBO rules seem to be sufficient.

[bearmum]

candybar, on Aug 14 2005, 11:43 AM, said:

Walddk, on Aug 13 2005, 05:19 PM, said:

candybar, on Aug 13 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

I don't want to stop playing in tournaments, and I don't want to accept horrible rulings either.  We don't have to do that in live bridge, why should we here?   There must be a better way.

Certainly. Do you have time to teach and/or educate them? And if you have, do you think thay can be bothered? The answer is depressing I predict.

Roland

Yes, I have time to teach TDs, I do it already in live bridge. Yes, they will be 'bothered' if there is BBO support for standards of knowledge to run tournaments.

May I suggest you try to run tourneys on BBO candy before you volunteer to 'train' BBO directors [I mean NO disrespect ] (cos I am sure it's DIFFERENT to directing f2f tourneys ) in spite of not having to deal with ( for example -- 'leading /playing out of turn -- reneging etc etc ' which CANNOT happen online)

BUT I believe that directors online have DIFFERENT problems to deal with ( like LOTS of folks leaving/disconnecting) which DON'T happen in f2f

I fully admit that in spite of playing duplicate bridge for ALMOST 45 years I have NO desire to direct -- BUT have a HUGH respect for those who do

[candybar]

bearmum, on Aug 14 2005, 11:24 AM, said:

May I suggest you try  to run tourneys on BBO candy before you volunteer to 'train' BBO directors

I do. BBO tournament TD experience is the origin of my post "TD Wish List".