[000002]

mikeh, on Aug 3 2005, 11:14 AM, said:

Playing 4♣ as non-forcing means that it will pay off only when 4♣ is a better partscore contract than partner's 3 of a major. That is a narrow target at which to aim. You are bidding a level higher, in a lower scoring contract with no assurance that your suit is any better than partner's, and with no assurance of any fit.

On the other hand, playing 4♣ as forcing ensures that you will find any fit that exists, whether it be in partner's suit (it may be long enough that even xx or x will be adequate support), or in ♣ or even in the 4th suit.

If I pick up xxx xx xx xxxxxx, and partner opens 1N, 15-17, I would very much like to bid a natural and non-forcing 2♣. However, experience suggests that using 2♣ as natural and non-forcing is not as effective on the majority of hands as using it as stayman.

BTW, I would play responder's first change of suit below game as natural (and forcing) rather than as a cuebid, for essentially the same reasoning: you need to widen the field of possible contracts far too often to use new suit bids as cuebids supporting partner's suit.

How one plays a change of suit beyond game, in auctions that start higher, is an entirely different topic, with somewhat different considerations.

Thanks

1) why u can bid a forcing 4-level suit 4♣ without fiting the overcall suit(3[sp)?
16hcps or 13~15pts without ♥ stopper
this is seldom after 3♥+3[sp] bid.
the most is 9~13hcp,did u agree?

2) pd's range very wide (from 6cs/11p to 18p/5cs),but the start auction so higher,can u discern it indeed?

3) If bid 4♣ to force pd with holding a 5cards ♣&14hcps,then u have to play 4nt when u can't find a fit suit with 14+11=25hcps,y?
is it a good contract ?

4) 1n-2c is forcing because the balanced hand too many , and a poor 6cards ♣ seldom

5)how to bid if u want to cue-bid really need? the only way IMO is cue-4♥, even if your 4♣ is forcing,even though u NOT have ♥ control.

thanks

[Fluffy]

000002, on Aug 3 2005, 11:06 PM, said:

2) pd's range very wide (from 6cs/11p to 18p/5cs),but the start auction so higher,can u discern it indeed?

It is very wide for you, if my partner overcalls with 11 HCP, I'll try to avoid playing with him any more.

[Winstonm]

First of all, you are welcome.

This is a more difficult problem than I originally thought. I had assumed that a new suit is and should be forcing to help game/slam bidding; however, a closer look suggests that game bidding might actually be improved with a non-forcing structure, and when you have been preempted the first priority should be to get to your game and not a speculative slam.

It is a given that partner has a good hand to bid directly at the 3-level over a preempt - something in the range of a 14-16 NT.

Take these hands after 3H-3S-?

x, xxx, AQJ9xx, Kxx
x, Axx, AKJxxx, Kxx

It seems too conservative to pass the first hand, yet there is no certainty of any game. There seems to be no way of getting this exact message across unless 4D is non-forcing.

Hand two, however, has some options: you could bid 5D or you could cue bid; however, with the cue bid you would have to have this agreement: a cue bid here is only a "general" force and does not promise support. Partner's bids would have to be pre-established as: rebid of his suit means he has no slam interest and 4N means he would cooperate in slam. This would allow responder to clarify his holdings at the 5-level as to whether he is trying for slam in overcaller's suit or his own long good suit.

I have not seen Lawrence's article but I have high regard for his thinking processes; there is certainly a good case for his thoughts. The disadvantage comes in slam bidding; it would be easier to bid a forcing 4 diamonds on the second hand, as this leaves more room; however, any time you have an in-between hand you have an unsolveable problem. And IMHO, it is more critical not to be preempted out of your game contract than your slam contract, as the first has more frequency.

Good question.

Winston

[000002]

THANKS

Excellent posted by u ,MR winston

THANKS

Can you help me another question?
(3♥)--3♠--(pass)--4nt

Is this 4nt show an 5-5 minors now? limit hand ,like:
4 honour in 2 suit (AKxxx+AQxxx)


good regard
00002

[temp3600]

Hello,

Quote

(3♥)--3♠--(pass)--4nt

I think the standard meaning of 4NT is key-card blackwood with spades agreed.

It seems difficult to describe a good 5-5 in the minor, x - xx - AQxxx - AKxxx for example. 4♥ sounds like a slam try in spades. I would start with 4♦, followed by 5♣.

Michael

[reisig]

New suits are forcing ...that's all...if not the problems are impossible to handle. You want to stop on a dime - not with me, please.

[Stephen Tu]

4m non-forcing is just too narrow a target to aim for. You only really gain when 4m makes & nothing higher does. Otherwise it is often just a matter of maybe saving an extra undertrick, which is not a big deal at IMPS unless you are doubled. It's possible that 4m non-forcing at MP could have some merit.

Even if you end up bidding a forcing 4m with less values than you'd really like to have, you'll still survive if partner has a bit extra, or if the cards are friendly. And when you do have values for a forcing 4m you'll have a lot more comfortable auctions, rather than cramming everything into a single cue-bid.

[Fluffy]

000002, on Aug 4 2005, 04:10 PM, said:

Can you help me another question?
(3♥)--3♠--(pass)--4nt

Is this 4nt show an 5-5 minors now? limit hand ,like:
4 honour in 2 suit (AKxxx+AQxxx)

Excuse me if I am wrong, but you are having fun reading the answers to your questions, aren't you?

[000002]

Aug 4 2005, on 03:46 PM, said:

1)New suits are forcing ...that's all...if not the problems are impossible to handle.  You want to stop on a dime - not with me, please


2)I think the standard meaning of 4NT is key-card blackwood with spades agreed.


3)Even if you end up bidding a forcing 4m with less values than you'd really like to have, you'll still survive if partner has a bit extra, or if the cards are friendly. And when you do have values for a forcing 4m you'll have a lot more comfortable auctions, rather than cramming everything into a single cue-bid.

1) we are all expert players, that means 80% u know it 80%,10% u know it 100%, and 10% u know it 10% only.
so our argument going on..................

2) yes standard. But what is standard WHEN newbie doubt it?

3)i think it's same to a poor game contract,isn't it?


THANKs

good regard, my friends

000002

[FrancesHinden]

000002, on Aug 4 2005, 11:10 AM, said:

THANKS

Excellent posted by u ,MR winston

THANKS

Can you help me another question?
(3♥)--3♠--(pass)--4nt

Is this 4nt show an 5-5 minors now? limit hand ,like:
4 honour in 2 suit (AKxxx+AQxxx)


good regard
00002

No.
With a good hand with both minors I'd bid one of them (forcing!).
I would say it is "standard" that this 4NT bid RKCB in spades.

I play it with my regular partners as natural, strong balanced, and bid 4H to agree spades.