[the hog]

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

[FrancesHinden]

ochinko, on Aug 2 2005, 02:49 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 04:00 AM, said:

1D 1S 2S - clear cut.
2S is not such a bad contract. Whats the problem?

Sorry, but the pass of 2Sp is clear cut, automatic, WTP, etc. only if you can't ignore the fact that you've seen both hands.

You are North, your partner has opened, you believe there's a 4:4 spade fit, you look at a 7 loser hand. How is passing 2Sp a clear cut?

What would your answer be if you knew South had:

QJ9x
KJx
AKxx
xx

My answer would be that I've missed game.
Quoting individual hands never helps decide if a bid is correct or not.

By the way, I don't believe there's a 4-4 spade fit. I believe there is a 4-3 or 4-4 fit. It's clearer to make a game try if you know you have 8 spades between the hands. It's also slightly clearer to try for game playing weak NT, as partner is more likely to have a balanced 15 count.

If you are bored, try a simulation. The exact parameters depend on your agreements, but here's a suggestion. Give partner either

15-17 4 spades, 4 or 5 diamonds, at least 2 clubs & at least two hearts
or
11-15 4 spades, 4 or 5 diamonds, singleton club or singleton diamond
or
11-16 3 spades, 4 or 5 diamonds, no more clubs than diamonds, singleton club or singleton diamond

and see how often you want to play in game.

If you are commenting from a strong NT base (as most people are) try:

11-14 HCP, 4+ diamonds, and either 4 spades or 3 spades and an outside singleton, or 3 spades and an outside small doubleton. (You may have to eliminate some non-opening bids and a few 1NT/2D rebids).

[joker_gib]

Fluffy, on Aug 2 2005, 11:55 AM, said:

I also go for the easy 1♦-1♠-2♦-p

Same !

And 2♦ is not so horrible to play, isn't it ?

[inquiry]

ochinko, on Aug 2 2005, 03:49 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 04:00 AM, said:

1D 1S 2S - clear cut.
2S is not such a bad contract. Whats the problem?

Sorry, but the pass of 2Sp is clear cut, automatic, WTP, etc. only if you can't ignore the fact that you've seen both hands.

You are North, your partner has opened, you believe there's a 4:4 spade fit, you look at a 7 loser hand. How is passing 2Sp a clear cut?

I would say the automaticness of the method depends on your agreements. Part of the agreement is the minimum number of spades, another part is the upper limit on raise. As this should be a frequent auction, you need firm agreements on both of these.

Quote

What would your answer be if you knew South had:

QJ9x
KJx
AKxx
xx

If MY partner had this hand I would shoot him. Well, that might be a little strong. but here is why he will not have this hand.

1) I prefer opening 14-16 1NT. This would be a 1NT opening bid.
2) Even not playig 14-16 hcp, his hand is golden opposite a 1♠ bid. We can do this a number of ways, but let's just go with ZAR for the moment. 14 hcp, 10 distrubutional points, 4 control points, 2 fit points for the QJ of spades That is 30 points without the bonus for the doubleton club. I use a jump to 3S to show this hand (and I use 2NT to show a hand too strong for a jump to 3S) as a fit and game try.

Thus for my system (notes available on line) , stopping in 2S is truely obvious and automatic. Even if you didn't want to stop, you could bid 2NT as an inquiry to find out more about your opener's hand. Here, opener would rebid 3♦ = only 3 spades, minimum. Then you would at least stop in 3S or more likely 3NT (if you make the game try, you will be stopping at three).

However, even not playing 3S as very limited raise (my notes say 29 to 32 Zar) with something else as stronger game try, stopping is 2S is still very a possibiliiy at the table, but I have to admit, I would bid 2NT vulnerable at imps and then take my chances in 3NT. The vulnerable game bonus is too inticining to pass up. On the other hand, at MP or if not vul, I would stick with pass over 2S bids playing with anyone reasonable (reasonable defined as partner can have 3 card support).

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

I instead would say it is standard and automatic hehe, its the price for knowing 2♠ is 4 card support I guess.

[joker_gib]

Fluffy, on Aug 2 2005, 09:12 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

I instead would say it is standard and automatic hehe, its the price for knowing 2♠ is 4 card support I guess.

It seems we are alone to support with 4 cards !

Alain

[the hog]

Fluffy, on Aug 3 2005, 05:12 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

I instead would say it is standard and automatic hehe, its the price for knowing 2♠ is 4 card support I guess.

Quote Joker:
"And 2D is not so horrible to play, isn't it ? "

Looks like 3S losers, 2D losers, a possible uppercut for another D loser and the H hook to take. Joker you have been drinking too much happy juice if you think this plays well.

[ochinko]

joker_gib, on Aug 3 2005, 11:19 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 2 2005, 09:12 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

Sorry Fluffy, but 2D on this is horrible.

I instead would say it is standard and automatic hehe, its the price for knowing 2♠ is 4 card support I guess.

It seems we are alone to support with 4 cards !

Alain

No, you're not alone. I too support only with 4 cards. That's why it was easy for me to imagine what North might have thought.

With the hand in question I bid 1NT though trying not to be scared by the singleton club. I want to show that i'm in the 12-14 range, especially when I'm at the top of it. 2D would show something like 11 points and a 6-cards diamond suit.

The original poster wanted scenarios when the bidding goes horribly bad. Most of the posters didn't take that into account. Well, it's a free world. At least until Ron takes the power

Petko

[TimNevolin]

Wackojack, on Aug 1 2005, 10:10 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

This particularly nasty deal came up the other day. I am sure that in most systems you will get into a poor contract and miss the not unreasonable contract of 4H. Could I invite honest bidding sequences in standard systems with a prize for the worst final contract? Or did I win the prize?

There are no neither 4h nor 4s here. Well you may theoretically get 10 tricks with worst distribution and awful opponents play. But this doesn't mean that this hand "is" 10 tricks in the ususal sense.