[lamford]

---

What would you bid now? And answers please from novices and strong players (particularly mikeh) as I am doing a short talk in a few days on Fourth Suit Forcing

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

assuming new suits on the 3 level generate a GF, but are nat., at least 3+,
I am bidding 3NT, showing the diamond stopper, denying 3 card spade support,
this is not 100% clear, but having a 6 card heart suit and a diamond stopper,
makes the 3 card spade support highly unlikely.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I went through all hands, I am not sure, the hands are really related to FSF.

[bluenikki]

lamford, on 2026-November-07, 05:19, said:

---

What would you bid now? And answers please from novices and strong players (particularly mikeh) as I am doing a short talk in a few days on Fourth Suit Forcing

Strictly speaking, once a suit has been rebid, the convention "Fourth Suit Forcing" is not in effect. That does not mean, though that fourth suit is nonforcing.

[DavidKok]

I think these three illustrative deals are too difficult for N/B, and have little to do with fourth suit forcing. All three auctions involve a suit bid twice - this one has opener rebidding, the other two have responder show (potentially false) preference to opener's first suit. Additionally, all three touch on the topic on how to show 3-card support for responder's major - hand 3 by negative inference. Sorry to say but I think these hands fail to touch on your stated topic. I would pick different hands if you want to teach novices or beginners about fourth suit forcing.

As for the actual hands, I will respond per thread. Here I like 3♦, showing the fragment and leaving room for partner to potentially show their sixth spade. 1♥-1♠; 2♥-3♠ would have set trumps for me, and partner's potential six card suit is not good enough for that (missing the ace).

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2026-November-07, 07:01, said:

I think these three illustrative deals are too difficult for N/B, and have little to do with fourth suit forcing. All three auctions involve a suit bid twice - this one has opener rebidding, the other two have responder show (potentially false) preference to opener's first suit. Additionally, all three touch on the topic on how to show 3-card support for responder's major - hand 3 by negative inference. Sorry to say but I think these hands fail to touch on your stated topic. I would pick different hands if you want to teach novices or beginners about fourth suit forcing.

As for the actual hands, I will respond per thread. Here I like 3♦, showing the fragment and leaving room for partner to potentially show their sixth spade. 1♥-1♠; 2♥-3♠ would have set trumps for me, and partner's potential six card suit is not good enough for that (missing the ace).

3D would be FSF for me, not a fragment, but this may come down to which school you went, that taught you FSF.
But I also agree, that they are pretty hard stuff for N/B.

[DavidKok]

For me 3♣ is 3SGF and 3♦ is describing the hand. The way I was taught it, 4SF does not apply on auctions where a suit has been bid two times. Instead 4SF is active auctions such as 1♥-1♠; 2♣-?.

[lamford]

DavidKok, on 2026-November-07, 07:28, said:

For me 3♣ is 3SGF and 3♦ is describing the hand. The way I was taught it, 4SF does not apply on auctions where a suit has been bid two times. Instead 4SF is active auctions such as 1♥-1♠; 2♣-?.

Yes, I found a very good article by Larry Cohen, that 4SF does not apply when a suit has been rebid. Thanks all.
Looking at convention cards in International Bridge, bids are described as 4SF even though a suit has been rebid, or the bid is NOT the fourth bid f the auction. But all very useful, and I agree that this is not for novices! And I took DavidKok's advice not to use these hands for my talk.

[mikeh]

I’ve never known the correct terminology for these bids but they are very common

Silent opps: 1C 1M 2C. 2D now is just a forcing noise and includes forcing club raises or forcing with 5+ majors.

1H 1S 2H 3C. Again, a forcing noise

I suppose the technically correct terminology would be third suit forcing but that could cause confusion amongst advancing players since many third suit bids are not forcing.

third suit forcing is usually a call made by responder, but even then it’s not always forcing. 1C 1 S 1N 2H.

And it can be forcing by opener if it’s a reverse or jumpshift, etc

So I don’t have an issue with describing it as a form of 4th suit forcing in order to convey the message that it’s artificial, neither showing nor denying length in the suit but establishing a force


On the actual hand I think 3D is 100% and no other call comes close. 3N is dreadful. Partner will often be setting the stage for a forcing bid in hearts, over which we have an easy 3S, or in spades, where we have an easy raise, although I would be a little worried that it’s an underbid.

In ambiguous constructive auctions, always look for a cheap, convenient call to allow partner room to describe why he created the force. This is as true in these third suit forcing auctions as it is in classical fourth suit auctions

[mike777]

You might be referring to the Bourke Relay or 3SFG

As others mentioned these auctions are much more advanced than novice level.
Intermediate level players have much to learn from these examples and excellent posts