[pescetom]

This other hand intrigued me even more, although I recognize it is much more difficult.
Let's start with West (hoping mikeh will forgive me for the choice, South had an interesting dilemma).

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Your call now?

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2026-October-28, 16:23, said:

This other hand intrigued me even more, although I recognize it is much more difficult.
Let's start with West (hoping mikeh will forgive me for the choice, South had an interesting dilemma).

---

Your call now?

X

[mike777]

mikeh, on 2026-October-28, 18:04, said:

X

This

[jillybean]

Pick a game?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-October-28, 18:54, said:

Pick a game?

I don’t understand your comment. In what universe is my double forcing to game? Obviously I’m passing 4H or 3N, and we’re in game. But why would I even think about raising 4m?

I’m doubling because I don’t want to put all of my eggs in the 4H basket with Axxxx We’re not missing a 5=4 heart fit. I’ll miss out when partner has 3 hearts. C’est la vie. Or tant pis

I’m not aiming to be perfect. Perfection is the enemy of good.

[jillybean]

It's not forcong to game but with the opps opening a vulnerable 3♠ it is hard to imagine partner will convert this to penalty.
Could happen

[mike777]

 mike777, on 2026-October-28, 21:35, said:

Yes double is risky since LHO is an unpassed hand
You may be at the 4 level with no play..
So be it. At least partner plays it while you go get a cup. Of something..

[pescetom]

Do your best to forget the other hand.

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Your call now?

[apollo1201]

 pescetom, on 2026-October-29, 03:13, said:

Do your best to forget the other hand.

---

Your call now?

Axx is the perfect holding for 3NT

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-October-29, 03:13, said:

Do your best to forget the other hand.

---

Your call now?

3NT

I have a stopper, ..., as far as I know, p could still only have a , min
opener, i.e. why should I start looking beyond 3 NT.

[jillybean]

3NT looks obvious

[awm]

Doubler could easily have something like ♠x ♥Axxx ♦AQxx ♣KQJx where 7♦ is excellent. Even a stronger hand (say adding the heart king) would be unlikely to move over 3nt. It seems like we should at least make some sort of move towards a diamond slam. Without great agreements (or much space) in this auction, I'd start with 4♠ and plan to bid diamonds next.

[Cyberyeti]

awm, on 2026-October-29, 09:01, said:

Doubler could easily have something like ♠x ♥Axxx ♦AQxx ♣KQJx where 7♦ is excellent. Even a stronger hand (say adding the heart king) would be unlikely to move over 3nt. It seems like we should at least make some sort of move towards a diamond slam. Without great agreements (or much space) in this auction, I'd start with 4♠ and plan to bid diamonds next.

I think 3N shows values here, partner can have a minimum-ish opening bid short in spades

What I move on is more complicated.

[jillybean]

awm, on 2026-October-29, 09:01, said:

Doubler could easily have something like ♠x ♥Axxx ♦AQxx ♣KQJx where 7♦ is excellent. Even a stronger hand (say adding the heart king) would be unlikely to move over 3nt. It seems like we should at least make some sort of move towards a diamond slam. Without great agreements (or much space) in this auction, I'd start with 4♠ and plan to bid diamonds next.

Do we have room to suggest diamonds?

---

[mikeh]

awm, on 2026-October-29, 09:01, said:

Doubler could easily have something like ♠x ♥Axxx ♦AQxx ♣KQJx where 7♦ is excellent. Even a stronger hand (say adding the heart king) would be unlikely to move over 3nt. It seems like we should at least make some sort of move towards a diamond slam. Without great agreements (or much space) in this auction, I'd start with 4♠ and plan to bid diamonds next.

I agree with all of this except that I think that if doubler had your heart king hand, so x AKxx AQxx KQJx he owes you a 4N bid over 3N

[WasWinM]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-October-29, 07:30, said:

3NT

I have a stopper, ..., as far as I know, p could still only have a , min
opener, i.e. why should I start looking beyond 3 NT.

Your style is different than mine. A t.o. double of a 3S preempt is a lot more than a minimum opening. I'm thinking slam is likely so 4S for me in my style.

[Cyberyeti]

WasWinM, on 2026-October-29, 11:55, said:

Your style is different than mine. A t.o. double of a 3S preempt is a lot more than a minimum opening. I'm thinking slam is likely so 4S for me in my style.

are you saying you don't double 3♠ with a 1444 13 ? that's losing bridge, the hand with short spades must act

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-October-29, 10:16, said:

Do we have room to suggest diamonds?

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Not sure why west bids 5H. The normal (afaik) advance of this 4S bid is the cheapest 4 card suit, precisely to avoid preempting partner

Btw, I do understand that the majority of players don’t know that. So ‘normal’ is the wrong word except for experts or near experts. Sorry about that

It’s analogous to auctions such as (1S) x (4S) 4N

4N shows two places to play. Doubler bids his cheapest (hopefully) 4 card suit. If he held something like 2=5=3=3 (with a hand on which double seemed preferable to 2H) he’d have to bid 5C.

If he bid 5H instead, this shows a very good, long suit with a hand too strong to overcall 2H and wanting to play hearts opposite a minor 2 suiter. Here, bidding 5H suggests much the same, since 4S didn’t promise anything in hearts…it didn’t show a 2 suiter although it didn’t deny one. It’s the only clearly forcng bid available.

[pescetom]

I think this is a great discussion, please continue

[mikeh]

To expand on my last post, and what follows is, I think, of broad application and an understanding of this would, imo, significantly improve most players’ bidding:

Think of bidding as a conversation. Use words to describe, to oneself, what your contemplated call says about your hand. Sometimes it’s quite specific. Other times it is providing limited information with more to come.

For example, after 1N (2S) 2N, if playing lebensohl, says nothing specific. It says: please bid 3C if possible. I have a wide range of hand types and I’ll be more specific next time.

In our auction of (3S) x (P) 4S, 4S says ‘I have a surprisingly good hand with some slam interest. Please make a convenient descriptive bid, but be careful to leave me room to tell you more about my hand’

Over to west: he can see that east hasn’t said anything about which suit or suits he thinks could be trump. He will need space. So bidding 5H consumes space…if he doesn’t have hearts, I’ve driven to slam or I’ve got myself in a terrible contract if he passes or raises, thinking I must have great hearts….and too much to have bid 4H over 3S. Wow…that statement doesn’t even come close to describing my hand so I won’t bid 4H.

Should I just bid 4C, since that is the very cheapest suit and leaves him the most space?

That’s not a bad argument but remember…east hasn’t given you any clue as to his shape. He might easily be something like Axx Qx KQxx AJxx

Now, opposite your hand the 4=3 club fit will often play as well as the 4=4 diamond fit, but we always want to reach an eight card trump fit if we can. Bear in mind that we craft our methods to cater to as many hand types as possible. Yes, 5D may make it hard on partner when he was excited about clubs, but our choices are maximize his bidding space while not telling him anything about our shape odpr bid 5D so that he knows we don’t have 4+ clubs. We’re not always going to miss a 5=4 or better heart fit since east can bid 5H over 5D. But he might bid 6D even with hearts because he thinks diamonds will play ok. We’re not aiming for double dummy bidding. The 3S bid caused problems. So accept that.


Btw, I do have what I think is a good suggestion but I’m not sure how well this would go over. My actual preference for west is to bid 4N. West will almost…and I almost left almost out…never hold a natural 4N bid here…he could have bid 3N on a very wide range of hands, definitely up to and including a 20 count, and that’s vanishingly unlikely given the 4S bid. So to me, 4N is asking for east to bid his hand