[jillybean]

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Is this another matter of style?
warning This could be a long thread.

[mw64ahw]

As usual my 4441s take the reverse 'birthright'/ weak ♦ route
2♣ - 2♦
3♦ 4(41)4

[WasWinM]

Although I hate it, I'll open 2C and describe it a NT hand.

[jillybean]

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What are your agreements here?

[apollo1201]

Also describing it as 22-23 bal

Undiscussed but my pard would do the same I hope:
- pass nothing to say (weak-ish)
- 2 of a suit (incl D) = positive, 5+ good enough suit (I d say QJxxx or Kxxxx min? maybe more relaxed for majors vs D?) with decent HCP (6+?)
- 2NT probably not a good idea to bid that but C stopper (unlikely here anyway) in a decent and rather bal hand
- XX same w/o stopper
- 3C useful to show a 3-suited hand

The 2 of suit bids could wrong side the hand, though.

[Kaitlyn S]

jillybean, on 2026-September-08, 08:59, said:

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Is this another matter of style?
warning This could be a long thread.

I open 1D. The singleton ace makes this hand less valuable than having the ace elsewhere.

[mike777]

I don't mind opening 2C.

However I would probably experiment and open 1C (2+} planning on reversing into 2D over partners heart bid.

Why?

4441 hands don't play that well.
After a reverse partner can easily show a minimum hand type.

Partner can also make a minimum hand 2C raise, no inverted minors.

[jillybean]

Let's proceed a little further with the 2♣ auction before we go down the 1m path.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2026-September-08, 17:45, said:

I don't mind opening 2C.

However I would probably experiment and open 1C (2+} planning on reversing into 2D over partners heart bid.

Why?

4441 hands don't play that well.
After a reverse partner can easily show a minimum hand type.

Partner can also make a minimum hand 2C raise, no inverted minors.

Unfortunately, too many hands where 1♣ ends the auction and game is just cold. Unless you regularly respond to 1♣ with Qx, xxxx, Qxxx, xxx or similar.

I don't like 2♣ but would open it

[DavidKok]

I don't mind 2♣, though I prefer 1♣ in Dutch Doubleton. I'm standard I would open 2♣ though.

I hate the argument that someone can concoct some 4-count that makes game. It's not even cold, you need diamonds to split 3-2 on that example. Somehow the construction always has zero wasted points in our short suit, and the opponents stay out of the auction despite a fit in a suit where they hold most of the honours. Technically it's possible, but who cares? It's about balance of probability, and about frequency. It's not a construct-a-hand puzzle.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2026-September-09, 03:11, said:

I don't mind 2♣, though I prefer 1♣ in Dutch Doubleton. I'm standard I would open 2♣ though.

I hate the argument that someone can concoct some 4-count that makes game. It's not even cold, you need diamonds to split 3-2 on that example. Somehow the construction always has zero wasted points in our short suit, and the opponents stay out of the auction despite a fit in a suit where they hold most of the honours. Technically it's possible, but who cares? It's about balance of probability, and about frequency. It's not a construct-a-hand puzzle.

Opps only have 16 points and an 8 card fit, no guarantee they will rescue you. Partner has an average of 6 points, so will respond most of the time, but it doesn't take much of a deviation for them not to. Qxxx, Q/Jxxx, xx(x), xx(x) is another hand that might well make game with wasted values. I just feel there are too many such hands.

If you can open a 2 card club it protects you somewhat as it rules out some of the hands with short clubs as you respond lighter than we do to a 4+ card club (although we would open 1♦ on this which makes it much more dangerous, we would pass with x, xxxx, xx, Kxxxxx and play 1♦ with 6♣ on), but also may cost you when partner has say xx, xxxx, xx, Kxxxx where we would bid 3♣ and you may not.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2026-September-09, 01:45, said:

Unfortunately, too many hands where 1♣ ends the auction and game is just cold. Unless you regularly respond to 1♣ with Qx, xxxx, Qxxx, xxx or similar.

I don't like 2♣ but would open it

yes, I would respond showing hearts with that hand, and end up in 3NT by responding hand. Opener would show three suited hand with short hearts.
On CC saying often respond with 4+, hopefully partner has read the CC and responds. This assumes opponents are silent of course..


Of course2... Partner might pass my "forcing" reverse into 2D, who knows..
They certainly would not play me for this hand.


Experiment...or practice..

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2026-September-09, 03:45, said:

yes, I would respond showing hearts with that hand, and end up in 3NT by responding hand. Opener would show three suited hand with short hearts.
On CC saying often respond with 4+, hopefully partner has read the CC and responds. This assumes opponents are silent of course..


Of course2... Partner might pass my "forcing" reverse into 2D, who knows..
They certainly would not play me for this hand.


Experiment...or practice..

In which case partner will have a weak NT and you'll be in 1Nx, or 18 and you'll fail in 2N.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-September-09, 04:12, said:

In which case partner will have a weak NT and you'll be in 1Nx, or 18 and you'll fail in 2N.

Yes, if opener has 11 balanced and responder has 4, we may end up in 1nt or the opponents will bid. If opener has 18, yes we will end up in 1nt again if opponents are silent, not 2nt.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2026-September-09, 04:40, said:

Yes, if opener has 11 balanced and responder has 4, we may end up in 1nt or the opponents will bid. If opener has 18, yes we will end up in 1nt again if opponents are silent, not 2nt.

How do you do that ? Most rebid 2N (we end up in 1N but that's in a weak NT context)

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2026-September-09, 05:10, said:

How do you do that ? Most rebid 2N (we end up in 1N but that's in a weak NT context)

One of the advantages of transfers over one club.
You reject the transfer and rebid 1NT with 17-19. A cost is you may miss a partial score in a 4-4 diamond fit.

[Kaitlyn S]

mike777, on 2026-September-09, 03:45, said:

yes, I would respond showing hearts with that hand, and end up in 3NT by responding hand. Opener would show three suited hand with short hearts.
On CC saying often respond with 4+, hopefully partner has read the CC and responds. This assumes opponents are silent of course..


Of course2... Partner might pass my "forcing" reverse into 2D, who knows..
They certainly would not play me for this hand.


Experiment...or practice..

How does one get to a 4-4 spade fit after opening in clubs and reversing into 2D? The spades are a pretty important feature of this hand. I plan to jump shift into spades over a 1H response. If partner passes my jump shift of 2S with three spades and heart values, we probably haven't missed anything.

Quote

Let's proceed a little further with the 2♣ auction before we go down the 1m path.

Sorry - can't do that with people talking about reverses.
As an aside, I think I have to rebid 2NT if I am forced to open 2c. The other night, I was playing with an inexperienced partner who opened 2C and rebid 2H with 4. I drove to 6H with 7NT cold and we had three trump losers. I didn't mess around with exploratory bids because anything I bid might have been passed (well, probably anything except 4NT which would always ask for aces in any sequence with this partner.)

[shyams]

I realise that it's a 22 HCP hand and that my system says a 2NT opening is 20-21. However, this is an unusual situation so I am opening this hand 2NT.

[mike777]

Not a problem to find spades if partner has 4h or 5H and 4S after a reverse into 2D.
Opener will simply rebid spades at third turn.

[jillybean]

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2♥ undiscussed. These hands are from a friend challenge, the friend I was bidding alongside plays X=0 Pass=values after interference of 2♣

or

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