[Gerben42]

There seem to be several different names for some Stayman conventions and I wonder what the difference is. So can someone tell me the difference between these:

* Stayman
* Non-Forcing Stayman (even though you can't pass 2♣)
* Garbage Stayman

What I consider to be standard is a variation that goes like this:
2♦ = no 4-card majors, after which 2♥ = both majors weak and 2♠ = 5♠ + 4♥ invitational
2♥ = 4♥ can have 4♠
2♠ = 4♠ no 4♥

What's that called?

[P_Marlowe]

Gerben42, on Jul 18 2005, 07:52 AM, said:

There seem to be several different names for some Stayman conventions and I wonder what the difference is. So can someone tell me the difference between these:

* Stayman
* Non-Forcing Stayman (even though you can't pass 2♣)
* Garbage Stayman

What I consider to be standard is a variation that goes like this:
2♦ = no 4-card majors, after which 2♥ = both majors weak and 2♠ = 5♠ + 4♥ invitational
2♥ = 4♥ can have 4♠
2♠ = 4♠ no 4♥

What's that called?

Hi,

Your "standard" Stayman version is Garbage / Crawling Stayman.

"Non-Forcing Stayman" means, you will bid 2C even if you dont have
at least inv. values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[coyot]

Another "standard" variation:
2♣ promises inv. values and after 2♦, 2♥ or 2♠ is natural, showing 5-4 (and forcing to 2[NT] or 3M.

Garbage allows passing any response (and best be used with 5 diamonds and 3+ in both majors).

I've never seen the variant above (with 2♥ weak and both majors.)

Also, lot of people like Smolen (which has the 2♥ and 2♠ responses swapped, therefore letting the 1NT hand to declare in 5-3 major fit.

[SoTired]

Stayman is 2C (or other bid) that asks for a 4-card major (or other variation).

"Non-Forcing Stayman" refers to whether the Stayman bid creates a Game Force or not. Some people used to play 2C as non-(game) forcing and 2D as (game) forcing Stayman. This system has gone out of favor.

"Garbage Stayman" refers to 1 or more specific sequences where the responder is trying to get out of 1N to acceptable suit contract, even tho it might be a 4-3 fit. The convention steals otherwise invitational or forcing bids. The original "Garbage Stayman" is the sequence:
1N 2C
2D 2H* = Weak hand, 4-4 or better in majors (equal or better spades). Opener passes with better hearts or bids 2S with equal or better spades. Not playing Garbage Stayman this sequence shows 5 hearts, 4 spades and invitational values.

An extended version of Garbage Stayman allows a weak responder with a single 4-card major and a 5+ card minor to bid 2C in hope of hitting a 4-4 major fit or else play in 2 or 3 of responder's minor. These sequences are more complex as some bids may have dual meanings. For example:
1N 2C
2H 2S* = Either 4s invitational, or 4s/5m weak. Opener with a min and 4s will pass. With a max and 4s will bid 3S. Without 4s, opener bids 2N with a min and 3C with a max.
Extended Garbage Stayman gives up the 1N 2C 2D 3C bid showing a game force, slam invitational hand with 4M/5C in order to escape 1N when responder is weak.

I hope this explanation is useful.

[Double !]

2H weak in both majors (pass or correct/ bid your better major), as I understand it, is an extension of transfers in response to 1NT. It's, in itself, 2H (1nt-2C-2D-2H) is an idle bid because P can transfer into hearts and then bid spades to show 4-5 invitational or better. The meaning of 1NT-2C-2D-2S is an issue for discussion as there are several potential uses for the bid.

[Gerben42]

Yes, although I think the 5-4 invitation is sort of standard, with my most regular partner it is GF relay.

[FrancesHinden]

The standard approach in England is that

1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H shows a weak hand with 4 spades and 5 hearts, and
1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S shows a weak hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts

Both expect partner to pass.

This is so normal here that I would expect partner to play it this way without any discussion at all. It's only reading this forum I discover that nobody else even suggests that as a possible method!

[sceptic]

The name garbbage stayman (or whatever it can be called) is not a good description.

it just means that with xxxxS xxxxH xxxxxD void, you bid 2 clubs and pass any response that opener makes. this does not mean you have garbbage, just that you feel 2D 2H or 2S is the best contract

against AKxx S xxH KQxxD xxxC for a weak nt
AKxx S Kxx H KQxx xxxC for a strong nt

all of a sudden your hand is not garbbage, so why call it such, it may be enough to stop opps getting their game or interferes very nicely

why does this have to be garbbage stayman when stayman can be 0 hcp to what ever max you have

so I play stayman

2C = 0hcp - unlimited
2D response no 4 card major 2H 4/4 weak in majors
or 2NT = invite values (does not mean I have 4 card major to bid stayman)(I play 4 way transfers, where 2nt over 1NT opener is transfer to diamonds)

[badderzboy]

Hi Frances,

Same way I play as regular Stayman and yes I'm from England LTPB2 suggests as invitational. I suspect it may be a matter of probability playng weak v's strong NT?

Steve

[Double !]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 19 2005, 04:36 AM, said:

1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S shows a weak hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts

Both expect partner to pass.

This is so normal here that I would expect partner to play it this way without any discussion at all. It's only reading this forum I discover that nobody else even suggests that as a possible method!

Sorry, but this is one of the possible applications that I was referring to when i said that this sequence is a matter of partnership agreement.