[belladonna]

---

this hand was in my goulash tourney.  after 2 passes N open 1nt - no alert,e/w reached 4 D I was called and adjusted to 5 D ,was told 1nt is a normal bid 3ed hand and no need to alert,i should learn my bridge - so here I am to learn,would appriciate your comments.ty

[hrothgar]

belladonna, on Jul 15 2005, 06:55 PM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: Unknown

♠ J10542 ♥ 8432 ♦ A ♣ 853 ♠ Q3 ♥ 10 ♦ 9542 ♣ AKQ762 ♠ AK ♥ A95 ♦ QJ876 ♣ 1094 ♠ 9876 ♥ KQJ76 ♦ K103 ♣ J

this hand was in my goulash tourney.   after 2 passes N open 1nt - no alert,e/w reached 4 D I was called and adjusted to 5 D ,was told 1nt is a normal bid 3ed hand and no need to alert,i should learn my bridge - so here I am to learn,would appriciate your comments.ty

Psyches are part and parcel of the game... I wouldn't normally bid 1NT with this hand, however, I can understand the temptation. In particular playing in "Ghoulash" the bid starts to look VERY reasonable...

E/W have no grounds for complaint
I dislike the ruling VERY much
Players don't deserve protection just because they get a bad board and whine about it

[inquiry]

Let's start with the obvious. Does your tourney outlaw psyches? IF the answer is yes, adjusting score is fine.

Next, lets assume you follow the rules of bridge and do not outlaw psyches. Then there remains some questions to be answered before you adjust the score. Did the South player "catch the psyche" and was the auction such that it became obvious from south's hand that parnter must have psyched? Assuming there is no evidence of fielding the psyche, the result 4DE+1 must stand.

What would field the psyche be? Assume NS play strong 1NT and south, with 5-4 in the majors and at least game invite stregnth stays out of the auction. I would consider that in this case the north player must psyche this bid too often. With bridgebrowser, it is possible to check how often this north player opens 1NT with very poor hands not vul in third seat. It this is a regular thing with this partner, then that makes the psyche problematic if south caught it.

I have to admit, I would have left 4D+1 stand unless something really odd happened in the rest of the auction.

[belladonna]

sorry my bad,my tourney (like it or not) dsnt allow psych,but north claimes was not psych.so since psych not alowed and N claimes wasnt psych then i wonder what it was

[luis]

Horrible ruling, again a TD rules based on his bridge knowledge and not in his knowledge of the rules, when we add that the bridge knowledge is very thin (no offense intended) we get a terrible ruling as a result.
1NT is a psyche, psyches in 3rd position in Goulash tourneys should be almost standard, there's nothing to alert, nothing to complain about and nothing to adjust.

[hrothgar]

belladonna, on Jul 15 2005, 07:17 PM, said:

sorry my bad,my tourney (like it or not) dsnt allow psych,but north claimes was not psych.so since psych not alowed and N claimes wasnt psych then i wonder what it was

sorry, thought that it was a bridge game

some players have explict agreements that a 1NT opening could be either 15-17 balanced or weak with a long suit. However, any such treatment is alertable.

[belladonna]

luis, on Jul 15 2005, 11:18 AM, said:

Horrible ruling, again a TD rules based on his bridge knowledge and not in his knowledge of the rules, when we add that the bridge knowledge is very thin (no offense intended) we get a terrible ruling as a result.
1NT is a psyche, psyches in 3rd position in Goulash tourneys should be almost standard, there's nothing to alert, nothing to complain about and nothing to adjust.

will repeat my tourney DOES NOT ALLOW PSYCH ,is in rules,in tourney page and announced when tourney starts,

[olegru]

Sorry, I would advice you better way to learn.
Open the The International Code LAWS of CONTRACT BRIDGE and try to find law, which you use to adjust that board.
If you find any - you learn something.
If you find no brige law give you rights to adjust board in this case - you learn something else.
Personally I advice you to read this:

Quote

LAW 40
PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENTS

A player may make any call or play (including an intentionally misleading call such as a "psychic bid", or a call or play that departs from commonly accepted or previously announced practice) without prior announcement, provided that it is not based on a partnership understanding. But a player may not make use of a bidding or play agreement unless
(a) his side has disclosed its use of such a call or play beforehand, or
( it has been agreed beforehand that the use of partnership understandings be disclosed at the time they are used. His partner must then disclose it. In this case, partner's disclosure must be confined to an indication that a partnership understanding has been used; he should not offer any explanation unless requested to do so.
Any group may restrict the use of special partnership understandings in its games.

My understanding - if it was indi you are compilely wrong.
If it was pair game and NS was established partnership, you should ask South did they have expirience of similar psychic bid's before. If yes, I did right thing to adjust. If not - you have to let result stay, but advice players to alert 3rd hand's bid next time and explain it could be a bluff, because starting now they already have "partnership understandings" thich must be disclosed. Even more, you can restrict the use of such "partnership understandings" by ask them do not bluff any more.

[olegru]

belladonna, on Jul 15 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

will repeat my tourney DOES NOT ALLOW PSYCH ,is in rules,in tourney page and announced when tourney starts

What do you think - Are you directing bridge tourney or some other "My game" torney?

[luis]

belladonna, on Jul 15 2005, 04:21 PM, said:

luis, on Jul 15 2005, 11:18 AM, said:

Horrible ruling, again a TD rules based on his bridge knowledge and not in his knowledge of the rules, when we add that the bridge knowledge is very thin (no offense intended) we get a terrible ruling as a result.
1NT is a psyche, psyches in 3rd position in Goulash tourneys should be almost standard, there's nothing to alert, nothing to complain about and nothing to adjust.

will repeat my tourney DOES NOT ALLOW PSYCH ,is in rules,in tourney page and announced when tourney starts,

Sorry I didn't read that before and I thought it was a bridge question, A goulash tournament with Psyches banned is just another game. Since we are in a bridge forums I think you are in the wrong forum. Maybe we should create a "pseudo-bridge" forum.

[belladonna]

olegru, on Jul 15 2005, 11:23 AM, said:

Sorry, I would advice you better way to learn.
Open the The International Code LAWS of CONTRACT BRIDGE and try to find law, which you use to adjust that board.
If you find any - you learn something.
If you find no brige law give you rights to adjust board in this case - you learn something else.
Personally I advice you to read this:

Quote

LAW 40
PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENTS

A player may make any call or play (including an intentionally misleading call such as a "psychic bid", or a call or play that departs from commonly accepted or previously announced practice) without prior announcement, provided that it is not based on a partnership understanding. But a player may not make use of a bidding or play agreement unless
(a) his side has disclosed its use of such a call or play beforehand, or
( it has been agreed beforehand that the use of partnership understandings be disclosed at the time they are used. His partner must then disclose it. In this case, partner's disclosure must be confined to an indication that a partnership understanding has been used; he should not offer any explanation unless requested to do so.
Any group may restrict the use of special partnership understandings in its games.

My understanding - if it was indi you are compilely wrong.
If it was pair game and NS was established partnership, you should ask South did they have expirience of similar psychic bid's before. If yes, I did right thing to adjust. If not - you have to let result stay, but advice players to alert 3rd hand's bid next time and explain it could be a bluff, because starting now they already have "partnership understandings" thich must be disclosed. Even more, you can restrict the use of such "partnership understandings" by ask them do not bluff any more.

it was NOT INDY - was PAIR goulash ,no polish club nor psych were permitted

[uday]

BBO opinion:

If the combination of no-psyches and goulashes is not bridge to you , please try to remember a few things before posting and saying so

- humour is not always recognized on forums. use smilies.
- if your intent is to attack, don't bother posting and save us the trouble of removing the post later

There are many combinations of TDs and customers possible, and it would be fine with BBO if the "market" decided what is bridge and not bridge. Screaming at someone who brings "off topic" questions here (off topic because they are not bridge to you) is not productive, and will only detract from the value of this forum.

Or in other words, "Be nice", please.


Personal opinion:

There are enough TDs and enough players that we can allow a few mutations.

[hrothgar]

uday, on Jul 15 2005, 07:35 PM, said:

There are many combinations of TDs and customers possible, and it would be fine with BBO if the "market" decided what is bridge and not bridge. Screaming at someone who brings "off topic" questions here (off topic because they are not bridge to you) is not productive, and will only detract from the value of this forum.

Hi Uday

It seems silly for Director's to post questions like these.

The director has already decided that they will do whatever they bloody well please...
So why ask for advice based on "standard" practices?

[FrancesHinden]

****WARNING***** I don't like the idea of a goulash tournament and think it's just wrong to ban psyches. So anything I say is in the context of thinking you are running a silly tournament. Still, each to his/her own.

Right, got that out of the way.

Yes, the North 1NT opening was a psyche. If you don't allow psyches, then you have to disallow the 1NT bid.

The normal procedure in f2f bridge in such a situation (e.g. when a pair are found to be playing an illegal system) is the board is cancelled, and NS get the worst of their table result and 40% or -3 IMPS. EW get 60% or + 3 IMPs.

It's not obvious EW would get to 5D without the psyche (which is off on a club lead) rather than 5C or 3NT which make.

[belladonna]

I wish to thank you all,sure learned from your replies, not agreeing is one thing - rudness is another.

[luis]

uday, on Jul 15 2005, 04:35 PM, said:

BBO opinion:

If the combination of no-psyches and goulashes is not bridge to you , please try to remember a few things before posting and saying so

- humour is not always recognized on forums. use smilies.
- if your intent is to attack, don't bother posting and save us the trouble of removing the post later

There are many combinations of TDs and customers possible, and it would be fine with BBO if the "market" decided what is bridge and not bridge. Screaming at someone who brings "off topic" questions here (off topic because they are not bridge to you) is not productive, and will only detract from the value of this forum.

Or in other words, "Be nice", please.


Personal opinion:

There are enough TDs and enough players that we can allow a few mutations.

I'm sorry uday but what is and what is not bridge is not open to discussion, bridge has rules, a card game not following those rules can't be called bridge.
This doesn't depend on the "customers" opinions.
For example if we had a online tennis site and "customers" decide to play without a net or with two balls at the same time we can't say that the "customers" redefined what tennis is, some of them just like playing a different game.

I have no problem in BBO allowing pseudo-bridge variations or even encouraging them but please don't say that what bridge is and what it is not is open to a decision by the BBO members.

[olegru]

uday, on Jul 15 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

BBO opinion:

If the combination of no-psyches and goulashes is not bridge to you , please try to remember a few things before posting and saying so
...
There are many combinations of TDs and customers possible, and it would be fine with BBO if the "market" decided what is bridge and not bridge.
...
Personal opinion:
There are enough TDs and enough players that we can allow a few mutations.

Hi uday,

I think it is not as innocent as it looks.
Lets pretend – I am not too experienced player, who never read Code LAWS of CONTRACT BRIDGE. (I believe there are a lot of players like this on BBO)
I played in that pseudo-bridge tournament and I learn psycho is prohibited. Now I am playing in real bridge tournament and (my God!) someone bluff.
How will I feel? What will I do?
Of course I will feel terrible. I’ll think someone cheated me. I’ll scream for td, I’ll attack my opponents, I’ll argue with td if he tells me everything is ok. I’ll completely destroy my own pleasure from game. I’ll insult my opponents. If it will be online game, probably I even turn off the PC and let the td to search for substitutes.
Is it only my imagination? I don’t think so.
In one tournament description on BBO I read message from TD “I got to tired to solve conflicts with bluff and decided to disallow psych on my tournaments.”

[coffee3]

Luis - I`ll tell you smth. When any TD here CREATE AND TYPE THE TOURNEY RULES ( and ANY DESCRITPIONS ) - first read them. If you don`t follow them - any TD will punish you. The RULES are for that - TO BE FOLLOWED. As I got it - YOU DIDN`T FOLLOW THE THE TOURNEY RULES!
Hristo Toshev

[luis]

coffee3, on Jul 15 2005, 05:33 PM, said:

Luis - I`ll tell you smth. When any TD here CREATE AND TYPE THE TOURNEY RULES ( and ANY DESCRITPIONS ) - first read them. If you don`t follow them - any TD will punish you. The RULES are for that - TO BE FOLLOWED. As I got it - YOU DIDN`T FOLLOW THE THE TOURNEY RULES!
Hristo Toshev

What? I didn't play in that tourney.

[asdfg2k]

Let's put it another way. I disagree with you, Uday, that BBO is big enough to allow variations of this sort. If the mere fact that people disagree with what BBO allows is defined as rude or not nice, then I'm afraid you'll have to count me amongst those people.

I think that Fred's purpose in enabling BBO is to promote the game of bridge.

Condoning directors that disallow psyches is not promoting the game of bridge. In fact, it is a very bad thing for the game of bridge, in the long term.

Just my $0.02.

George