[Walddk]

Rebound, on Jul 13 2005, 11:17 AM, said:

For this hand I will say only that I believe 3♠ to be the call since it sets the trump suit asap.

Good thinking. If 3♦ gets a vote among the panelists I would be very surprised. It must be between 3♠ and 4♣ (splinter). It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

As the splinter takes up space, I prefer it to be a very specific hand.

I think it should show 4 trumps to allow partner to count tricks. If you think that is too rare, than agree it shows exactly 3 trumps, but don't play it to show either 3 or 4.

I don't usually play this system (2D semi-positive), so in my normal style I play that a splinter shows exactly one useful card (or a hand so good it will bid on).

As we have already shown some values with the 2D bid, I agree with Roland that it makes sense to have the splinter denying a key card.

[inquiry]

This hand seemed ripe for discussion. We all know that we are going to game, at least. The question is do we raise spades directly via 3S or 4C splinter (or possible 4S), or do we show diamond as if partner fits diamonds, we bring a possible 6D/7D contract into play something you can’t do if you raise spades immediately. A side question, is after 2D, would a 3S raise be forcing (I play yes). IF not, of course, a direct 3S raise is out of the question. Let’s see what the panel had to say. We will start first with the elightened minority who choose (correctly) to forgo the direct raise and bid diamonds first.

ng “3♦. Good problem. I will have the opportunity for delayed spade support. Anyway, I will go for slam. If partner supports diamonds, grand is possible. Alternatives: 3S (slamish) or 4C (splinter). If I bid 3S, we will play in spades and would miss 7D if North has AK of diamonds and missing spade Queen, or North has something: AQJxx, Ax, AK, Axxx (7N and 7D are laydown). 4C splinter needs 4 card support. “

Luis 3♦, I'm going to bid 3♠ or 4♠ next. I like to show the diamond suit before bidding spades, pd needs as much information as I can give him to take good decisions in this hand. There's no reason not to bid a good 6 card diamond suit. The fact that I didn't bid 3♦ directly over 2♣ will also provide great information to pd. This hand can be a grand slam.” Luis's point about not bidding 3♦ immediately is worth noting.

Dinos1 “3D. Show good suit before giving a support so strong partner will have better image of our hand (and possible source of tricks. Besides 6D can be a better contract (partner having dKxx) or even 7D (if he has stiff dAK) isn't out of question.”

The remainder of the panel choose a direct spade raise of some flavor. Being 7-3 in favor of spade raise, I had to down grade my choice of 3♦ in the scoring.

Half of those choosing the splinter had a sneaky admiration for the 3♦ bid, they just coulldn’t come to bid it. FLUFFY ”4♣, we cannot show both ♦s and singleton ♣, the suit quality makes the difference, if it was just KJxxxx I would go with 3♦, but not without control.” Fred “4♣ I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong), but if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high. I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways. Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about...” Ritong carried the admiration for diamonds one step further, he plans on making the splinter and THEN bid diamond… saying, “4♣ intending to follow with 5♦. Only Rich reisig chose the splinter without mentioning diamonds, instead he thinks, “4C (But 3S might work better).

The 3♠ bidders had no concern about missing game, but they didn’t like making a splinter with only three card trump support. Walddk 3S . Goodish hand, a keycard and a singleton. Too good for a 4C splinter which in my methods would show the same hand without SK. If opener is interested in my club control, he can bid a serious 3NT. And our two guest panelist agreed with Roland’s choice of a bid. Poky ”3S With the fourth trump I would bid the 4C splinter. This way, I can bid only 3S. It is very wrong to bid a second suit (3D) when holding such a genuine spade support. cherdano [i]"3♠. With Kxx support and a singleton, I see no alternative to showing this. If I bid 3♦ now and support later, partner may take this as a preference with ♠xx. (If we bid naturally after 3♠, I may still be able to show my 6-card suit.)

With four votes, 4C gets the 100, getting 3 votes each, 3S gets the nod and 80 points as the majority choose a direct raise, and the 3D gets downgraded with 3 votes and a score of 60. (I hope the reader tries to follow the rationale for each bid and let the winning "logic" rather than the highest score tell them what is REALLY the correct bid. To keep it simple, I will tell you.. it is 3♦. lol :-) )

Fred       4♣
Luis        3♦
Walddk    3♠
Fluffy      4♣
cherdano 3♠
reisig       4♣
ritong      4♣
ng           3♦
Dinos1       3♦
Poky           3♠

[whereagles]

I'm not sure the point of not having bid a direct 3♦ is sound. I wouldn't like to make such a space-consuming bid in an very cramped situation unless I was REALLY interested in diamonds. With

♠ Kxx
♥ Qxx
♦ KQxxxx
♣ x

I would still prefer to bid 2♦ and later support pard's major instead of eating away bidding space with 3♦.

But ok, that's just my way of thinking.

[mike777]

whereagles, on Jul 13 2005, 08:37 AM, said:

I'm not sure the point of not having bid a direct 3♦ is sound. I wouldn't like to make such a space-consuming bid in an very cramped situation unless I was REALLY interested in diamonds. With

♠ Kxx
♥ Qxx
♦ KQxxxx
♣ x

I would still prefer to bid 2♦ and later support pard's major instead of eating away bidding space with 3♦.

But ok, that's just my way of thinking.

I would be happy to bid 3d and consume space with that example hand.

[flytoox]

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

[luis]

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 02:41 PM, said:

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

Example:
2c - 2d
2s - 3d
3h - 3s
3n - 4c

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.
You can't describe the hand better.

[flytoox]

Walddk, on Jul 13 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.


Regards

Hongjun

[Walddk]

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 05:04 PM, said:

Walddk, on Jul 13 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.


Regards

Hongjun

And what (where) does BBO Advanced say anything anout the requirements for a splinter on this auction?

Roland

[luis]

Walddk, on Jul 13 2005, 03:06 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 05:04 PM, said:

Walddk, on Jul 13 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.


Regards

Hongjun

And what (where) does BBO Advanced say anything anout the requirements for a splinter on this auction?

Roland

I think you are free to use a Splinter is just a judgement call. I don't think the system goes far to this point telling us what to do. :-)

[FrancesHinden]

Sadly the 3S bid didn't show 3-card spade support, any more than the auction 1S - 1NT - 2H - 2S shows 3-card spade support.

Now, bidding 3D works like a charm if opener rebids 3NT: something like

2C - 2D - 2S - 3D- 3NT - 4S

is a perfect description of your hand.

But partner might do something else.

2C - 2D - 2S - 3D -

4C (black two-suiter). Ouch. Now what? 5S? Might be too high. 4S? He'll have no idea we have Kxx as we could have xx.

3H - step 1, should be easy... but 3S doesn't show 3-card support; if we bid 3S and partner just raises to 4 we're on a complete guess whether to bid on or not. If we bid 4S, maybe it shows this hand.. but maybe it shows less good spades (say xxx and KQxxxx in diamonds).

There isn't a perfect answer to this problem. If partner has AQxxx Ax AK AKxx then 3D is the best chance to get us to the excellent 7D contract. If partner has AQJxxx AKQ - AKxx then raising spades will get us to the excellent 7S contract; bidding diamonds first will make life much more difficult.

[flytoox]

Walddk, on Jul 13 2005, 03:06 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 05:04 PM, said:

Walddk, on Jul 13 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

It's too good for a splinter in my methods, because it denies any keycard.

Roland

Roland, I think you should not bid by your method, you are expected to bid by BBO advanced. Otherwise, any bid could be right in one or another's method.


Regards

Hongjun

And what (where) does BBO Advanced say anything anout the requirements for a splinter on this auction?

Roland

I dont know. What I know is that splinter Doesnot deny keycard in BBO.

[flytoox]

luis, on Jul 13 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 02:41 PM, said:

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

Example:
2c - 2d
2s - 3d
3h - 3s
3n - 4c

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.
You can't describe the hand better.

Well, if auction preceeds as you planned, that would be great.

However things can go in a very different way.

First, 3S doesnot show such good support. It only shows spade tolerance. Pd will be very worrying about the trump strength.

Second, if pd bid 4S after your 3S, you will be in a very difficult position. DO you bid 5C or not? Do you bid 4N? Do you pass?

[luis]

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 03:20 PM, said:

luis, on Jul 13 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 02:41 PM, said:

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

Example:
2c - 2d
2s - 3d
3h - 3s
3n - 4c

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.
You can't describe the hand better.

Well, if auction preceeds as you planned, that would be great.

However things can go in a very different way.

First, 3S doesnot show such good support. It only shows spade tolerance. Pd will be very worrying about the trump strength.

Second, if pd bid 4S after your 3S, you will be in a very difficult position. DO you bid 5C or not? Do you bid 4N? Do you pass?

If over 3s pd bids 4 I pass, what else can I have?

[whereagles]

Bah.. auctions after strong 2♣ suck anyway. Strong club is much better

[flytoox]

luis, on Jul 13 2005, 03:38 PM, said:

If over 3s pd bids 4 I pass, what else can I have?

Say you have,

S: JX
H: JXX
D: KJTXX
C: XXX

You would bid 3D then 3S. Wouldnot you? How can pd make an intelligent decision if your hand can be so different?

[luis]

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

luis, on Jul 13 2005, 03:38 PM, said:

If over 3s pd bids 4 I pass, what else can I have?

Say you have,

S: JX
H: JXX
D: KJTXX
C: XXX

You would bid 3D then 3S. Wouldnot you? How can pd make an intelligent decision if your hand can be so different?

No, I wouldn't. I would bid 2NT instead of 3d and if I bid 3d I would bid 3NT over 3h never 3s.

[fred]

luis, on Jul 13 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 13 2005, 02:41 PM, said:

I think Fred's comment worths repeating here:

'I am almost tempted to bid my diamonds (since our fit in that suit will often determine where we belong),

BUT, if I do so then I may not be able to express my spade support without getting us too high.

I prefer to try to get my hand off my chest anyways.

Perhaps it is my singleton club and not my long diamond suit that partner needs to hear about'

You always have time to show the singleton club, but you don't have time to show a 6 card diamond suit.

Example:
2c - 2d
2s - 3d
3h - 3s
3n - 4c

You showed both a diamond suit, not enough for a direct 2c-3d, 3 card support in spades AND the club control.
You can't describe the hand better.

Disagree.

The bidding has to go exactly as you suggest (ie partner has make the cheapest bid at each of his next 2 opportunities) in order for you to have a chance "show all the features of your hand" at a convenient level.

If the auction continues in any other manner, you are going to have to get to the 5-level to convince partner that you have 3-card support and/or a singleton club.

It is unusual for a hand that could not make a positive response to withhold 3-card support for partner's major. As such, it is my opinion that even the auction that you describe should not be used to cater to these rare (and obscure) hands.

Couldn't the sequence you gave be completely natural? Maybe responder is 2-1-5-5 (and maybe you belong in clubs).

I have not thought this all the way through, but a good general principle seems to be that you should not withhold 3-card support in this auction unless you are willing to go to at least the 5-level.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

Who said: "Support with support, especially a major". Good rule. 2♣ is so space consuming that in the long run it will pay off to support opener's major at your first opportunity. 3♠ or 4♣, depends on agreement.

Roland

[han]

I think the 3D bidders have a problem if opener rebids 3S. Surely there is no possible way to show 3-card spade support now.