[pork rind]

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JUST CURIOUS. YOU PICK UP THIS HAND IN A TEAM MATCH, FIRST POSITION NV VS NV. DO YOU OPEN? PASS TO COME IN LATER??? DOES BIDDING SYSTEM MATTER ????

[kgr]

1♠

[Fluffy]

I have an opening in my system to show weak in both majors .

But since I don't have it with pick up partners I would just open 1♠

[helene_t]

If I open 2 or 3 in one major and later introduce the other, I'm afraid partner will take it as lead-directing with a not particularely long second second suit. So pass or 1♠. I'm not sure.

[joker_gib]

Fluffy, on Jul 7 2005, 01:19 PM, said:

I have an opening in my system to show weak in both majors .

I also have that !

This one if for ZAR fans !! Come on Ben !

Alain

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

I intend to show this hand via a Michaels
Cue.

If one of the oponents bids hearts, I will
pass, if one bids spades, ... depending on
the moon and on the vul. I will pass or bid
2H / 3H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mr1303]

Even if playing Ekren 2D or similar, this isn't the hand for it.

I think I'll pass this one. Singleton K isn't worth much.

[the hog]

Pass and come in later.

[cherdano]

Hmm, those of you who say you would open this with a weak opening bid showing majors, are you talking of some Ekren showing 4+/4+? I never got it how people can be happy to open this with 4-4, 5-4, 6-4 or 6-6...

I would either open this 2♠, then later bid 3♥ voluntarily, or pass and bid Michaels later.

Arend

[inquiry]

Finally a use for that useless diamond king. Take teh diamond King away, and the hand is the same. The difference is, in the US, opening 1S on the hnad without the diamond king is "illegal" (with 6 hcp), but with the diamond king, you can open 1S (9 hcp). What a silly rule.

With misho I would open 1S, with some other partners, I would pass planning on bidding later when one bid will show tis hand.

[Elianna]

inquiry, on Jul 7 2005, 05:42 AM, said:

Finally a use for that useless diamond king. Take teh diamond King away, and the hand is the same. The difference is, in the US, opening 1S on the hnad without the diamond king is "illegal" (with 6 hcp), but with the diamond king, you can open 1S (9 hcp). What a silly rule.

I think that actually, you're allowed to open that hand 1♠ in the US, but not to have the AGREEMENT to open that hand 1♠. If you see what I mean. This may or may not add tot he silliness.

[kgr]

Elianna, on Jul 7 2005, 02:49 PM, said:

inquiry, on Jul 7 2005, 05:42 AM, said:

Finally a use for that useless diamond king. Take teh diamond King away, and the hand is the same. The difference is, in the US, opening 1S on the hnad without the diamond king is "illegal" (with 6 hcp), but with the diamond king, you can open 1S (9 hcp). What a silly rule.

I think that actually, you're allowed to open that hand 1♠ in the US, but not to have the AGREEMENT to open that hand 1♠. If you see what I mean. This may or may not add tot he silliness.

I'm interested to know what would happen in US:
you have:
xxxxxx
AJxxxx
x
-

And you open 1S.
You don't have an agreement with your partner about this and normally you open with 12 HCP (can go till 10 with more distribution).

Question: Is opening 1S strictly disallowed or can you open 1S if partner is not aware that above hand is possible for 1S (and 1S opening can be considered as a psyche)?

If Belgium we have rule of 18 (total of HCP + number of cards in 2 longest suits is at least 18). Above hand only has 17.
I asked similar questin to Belgian TD and the answer was: "On a clubevening I would put a stop on this. Assign score of 60/40 for violating rule of 18. These kind of bids go against the pleasure in the club".
...But this didn't really answer: Am I allowed to 'psyche' this or is it strictly forbidden to violate the rule of 18 or similar rule in the US?

[Elianna]

kgr, on Jul 7 2005, 06:05 AM, said:

Elianna, on Jul 7 2005, 02:49 PM, said:

inquiry, on Jul 7 2005, 05:42 AM, said:

Finally a use for that useless diamond king. Take teh diamond King away, and the hand is the same. The difference is, in the US, opening 1S on the hnad without the diamond king is "illegal" (with 6 hcp), but with the diamond king, you can open 1S (9 hcp). What a silly rule.

I think that actually, you're allowed to open that hand 1♠ in the US, but not to have the AGREEMENT to open that hand 1♠. If you see what I mean. This may or may not add tot he silliness.

I'm interested to know what would happen in US:
you have:
xxxxxx
AJxxxx
x
-

And you open 1S.
You don't have an agreement with your partner about this and normally you open with 12 HCP (can go till 10 with more distribution).

Question: Is opening 1S strictly disallowed or can you open 1S if partner is not aware that above hand is possible for 1S (and 1S opening can be considered as a psyche)?

If Belgium we have rule of 18 (total of HCP + number of cards in 2 longest suits is at least 18). Above hand only has 17.
I asked similar questin to Belgian TD and the answer was: "On a clubevening I would put a stop on this. Assign score of 60/40 for violating rule of 18. These kind of bids go against the pleasure in the club".
...But this didn't really answer: Am I allowed to 'psyche' this or is it strictly forbidden to violate the rule of 18 or similar rule in the US?

It is hard to say definitively, because I have gotten versions of rulings from directors that contradict each other. This seems to imply (and from my understanding of the american rules seems to be the case) that what would happen to you is this:

1. An opponent would call a director (if they were upset about this. If they don't call a director, nothing happens to you).

2. The director attempts to determine if you have an agreement to open that type of hand 1♠
a. If you are found to not have that agreement (note: this is DIFFERENT then whether you DO or DO NOT have that agreement*) then nothing happens, board stands.
b. If it is found that you have an agreement to open such hands, then depending on the competency (though it seems more like whim) of the director, one of the following may happen to you:
i. Director may attempt to determine what would have happened if you hadn't opened the hand 1♠ and assigned the score for that.
ii. Director may attempt to determine the most favorable thing (for the opponents) that could reasonably happen, and assign that score.
iii. The director could impose an artificial score (ave+, ave-)
iv. The director, in addition to one of the three above, may assign a procedural penalty to you.

I added the * because this really seems up to the director's mood, at least from my experiences.

[Elianna]

So in short (I read my post and realized that it was wordy) you are not expressly forbidden from opening any sort of hand with a natural (non-conventional) bid in the ACBL.

[hotShot]

I'll open 1♠! Don't make it opps to easy to find their double fit in the minors.
If they have stoppers in the Majors they might have 3-6NT.

[kenberg]

Anything could be right. For example, opening a weird 1H might get you a heart lead on defense. The main problems with opening this are that your partner may double them in five of a minor and that your partner will remember this hand the next time the opponents bid five of a minor. I pass but I wouldn't abuse a partner who chose to bid with this holding.

Regretably I agree with the somewhat cynical comments made about director rulings in cases like this. Both rule makers and directors seem to have difficulty distinguishing between "I wouldn't bid the hand this way" and "It's illegal (or must be made illegal) to bid the hand this way". Players should show enough respect for the game to not repeatedly bid whimsically and of course they cannot have secret agreements but if it appears at all reasonable to think they are using their judgment, however flawed that may be, then they should be left in peace to do so.

Ken

[Led]

3♥ shows in my system 66 majors wih better ♥ and a club void

[inquiry]

Led, on Jul 7 2005, 10:40 AM, said:

3♥ shows in my system 66 majors wih better ♥ and a club void

Wow, bet you have used this bid a lot.

[Gerben42]

Well if they feel frisky they use it on a 6520 also.

For what it's worth, I pass unless I have a special bid for this.

[mike777]

Pass easy, now I can bid a bunch later