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Right on Q RR wrong?

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 07:37

There was another incident in the online game at the North London Club this week. Kevin the Koala and Enid the Emu were logging in in the early hours from Sydney and RR was playing with SB who tested positive for Covid and had to play online.

RR led a passive heart and declarer drew trumps and conceded the ace of clubs. "I would have led an active diamond there, RR," suggested SB, East. "Any rounded suit finesse was sure to be right."

"I thought about it", responded RR, "but North showed the queen with his 4D bid, as he announced, and South was sure to have the ace if he bid slam".

"DIRECTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR," typed SB. He also kept pressing the CALL DIRECTOR button furiously, causing the BBO server to freeze.

The TD eventually arrived. "How can I help?", said OO".

"There was misinformation by Enid the Emu, North, who just typed "Q" for her 4D bid, and this was misinterpreted as the queen of diamonds by RR." SB paused for breath. "There was an obligation on North to be sure that the non-standard abbreviation "Q" was understood." He concluded: "Without the MI, RR might well have led a diamond. Indeed he thought about doing so anyway".

"I don't know about that, SB" responded OO. "It seems to me that RR was even more dense than normal here."

How do you rule?
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#2 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 10:28

How bad am I that SB is second only to Putin in someone I'd like to see suffer from Covid?

I might have sympathy for RR if he were not a fluent English speaker, or if this were one of his first online bridge outings. But the pandemic has been going on for years, we've all become accustomed to playing online, and "Q" is a common online abbreviation for "cue". It's ridiculous for an experienced player like RR, even as clueless as he sometimes is, to think that someone shows a queen in this auction.

Would it be better if EE explained " control"? Certainly. But I can't sanction punishing someone for following common practice in the online environment.

#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 10:46

View Postbarmar, on 2022-May-17, 10:28, said:

How bad am I that SB is second only to Putin in someone I'd like to see suffer from Covid?

I might have sympathy for RR if he were not a fluent English speaker, or if this were one of his first online bridge outings. But the pandemic has been going on for years, we've all become accustomed to playing online, and "Q" is a common online abbreviation for "cue". It's ridiculous for an experienced player like RR, even as clueless as he sometimes is, to think that someone shows a queen in this auction.

Would it be better if EE explained " control"? Certainly. But I can't sanction punishing someone for following common practice in the online environment.


I'm only an occasional online player so would not have equated Q to cue in a situation where it wasn't ludicrous for it to mean queen (I've never seen the abbreviation used). Here where the meaning of queen didn't make sense, I think I'd at least have asked before I led.
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 14:11

View PostCyberyeti, on 2022-May-17, 10:46, said:

I'm only an occasional online player so would not have equated Q to cue in a situation where it wasn't ludicrous for it to mean queen (I've never seen the abbreviation used). Here where the meaning of queen didn't make sense, I think I'd at least have asked before I led.

I think this is the key point, the most apparent possible meaning (Queen of this suit) makes no bridge sense. So a beginner may have been misinformed, but an experienced player has the duty to protect himself asking for clarification.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 14:20

View Postbarmar, on 2022-May-17, 10:28, said:


I might have sympathy for RR if he were not a fluent English speaker, or if this were one of his first online bridge outings. But the pandemic has been going on for years, we've all become accustomed to playing online, and "Q" is a common online abbreviation for "cue". It's ridiculous for an experienced player like RR, even as clueless as he sometimes is, to think that someone shows a queen in this auction.

Would it be better if EE explained " control"? Certainly. But I can't sanction punishing someone for following common practice in the online environment.


FWIW, I've never encountered "Q" for "cue" and would feel guilty about using either. " control" is a fair hand typed minimum but on request for further explanation I would feel obliged to offer "1st level control in diamonds, denies same in clubs", or whatever our agreement is.
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#6 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 14:33

Q for cue is standard.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#7 User is online   Lovera 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 15:45

It seems to me instead that RR wants to suggest something to the partner because S was not sure he had the slam (with only A in ) as it is risky (the sequence is needed for to discard the loser in while he was sure he had a loser in ). Now the slams are also realized on wrong opening lead as in this case.(Lovera)
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#8 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 15:59

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-May-17, 14:33, said:

Q for cue is standard.

Q for queen is standard.

Notably, queen sufficiently describes a systemic particular; cue does not sufficiently describe a systemic particular. Some societies have protocols for coping when multiple standards coexist- sometimes they are intuitive and that reflects upon TPTB; sometimes they are not which reflects upon TPTB.
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#9 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 16:20

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-May-17, 14:33, said:

Q for cue is standard.

To be a 'standard' it must have been defined as such in publication(s) generally known to anybody who must be expected to encounter this term.
Where can we find the definition that 'Q' is short for 'cue'???
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#10 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 16:20

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-May-17, 14:33, said:

Q for cue is standard.

To be a 'standard' it must have been defined as such in publication(s) generally known to anybody who might be expected to encounter this term.
Where can we find the definition that 'Q' is short for 'cue'???
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#11 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-May-17, 16:34

View Postpran, on 2022-May-17, 16:20, said:

To be a 'standard' it must have been defined as such in publication(s) generally known to anybody who might be expected to encounter this term.
Where can we find the definition that 'Q' is short for 'cue'???

There are 'definitive' bridge publications?

Q is commonly used as shorthand for cue.
You can find it here by Ana Roth on the WYB (world youth bridge) site in a discussion of Lebensohl.

Edit - A quick google search turns up an article where Barry Harper distinguishes between Q and Cue - not sure if this is idiosyncratic or defined as standard.
And from Canada
And from John Adams in Spokane USA - on Bridgewinners:

Quote

An inferential Q-bid is different than an advance Q-bid IMO. I have seen "advance Q-bids" used when the bid can be natural, but the player supports on the 3rd round and somehow this transforms their second bid into an advance Q. Hate that, but like inferential Q-bids.
John Adams.
June 29, 2015

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#12 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 02:07

After a quick look I find all these examples to be just that: Privately announced examples of 'what I mean when announcing Q'

At the table I would (as a Director) have asked 'why did you accept Q as an explanation of the 4 bid when apparently you did not fully understand it?'
And I would warn players not to give explanations which could be incomplete or misleading to opponents.
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#13 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 03:42

Why, in the English language, is 'abbreviation' such a long word? The same in Swedish 'förkortning' :)

I have personally never seen 'Cue' as 'Q' though obviously others have. However, it seems very wrong to use an abbreviation in the game where it also has another meaning that has been there from the very beginning of the game. Using 'text lingo' at the bridge table makes the game lesser, and I am sure over 99% of bridge players would have said that 'Q' = 'Queen' even though 'Q' is a phonetic sound for 'Cue'.

However, it is for the opps. to enquire before making the opening lead...

Anyone, with the slightest bit of bridge knowledge, would have queried why North was showing the Q on the bidding? With Precision control bids that can be, but after Jacoby 2NT has anyone come across where partner shows 3rd round control on their next bid? Of course not.
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#14 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 05:17

View Postpran, on 2022-May-18, 02:07, said:

After a quick look I find all these examples to be just that: Privately announced examples of 'what I mean when announcing Q'

At the table I would (as a Director) have asked 'why did you accept Q as an explanation of the 4 bid when apparently you did not fully understand it?'
And I would warn players not to give explanations which could be incomplete or misleading to opponents.

They clearly indicate that in Bridge circles the use of the term Q widely is understood as cue/control.
I have never heard of a 4 level bid of a suit that most people would reasonably understand to mean I have the queen (and by inference denying the ???).
Mind you I haven't been playing bridge very long.

I'm looking for an expressive förk. here but (n)ortning comes to mind.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 05:57

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-May-18, 05:17, said:

They clearly indicate that in Bridge circles the use of the term Q widely is understood as cue/control.
I have never heard of a 4 level bid of a suit that most people would reasonably understand to mean I have the queen (and by inference denying the ???).
Mind you I haven't been playing bridge very long.

I'm looking for an expressive förk. here but (n)ortning comes to mind.


Q-bid is fine, it gives context. Q on it's own doesn't.

There are obvious auctions where a 4 level bid shows the Q, but usually they start 2-2(denies a king)
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#16 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 06:34

View PostLBengtsson, on 2022-May-18, 03:42, said:

Why, in the English language, is 'abbreviation' such a long word? The same in Swedish 'förkortning' :)

I have personally never seen 'Cue' as 'Q' though obviously others have. However, it seems very wrong to use an abbreviation in the game where it also has another meaning that has been there from the very beginning of the game. Using 'text lingo' at the bridge table makes the game lesser, and I am sure over 99% of bridge players would have said that 'Q' = 'Queen' even though 'Q' is a phonetic sound for 'Cue'.

However, it is for the opps. to enquire before making the opening lead...



Anyone, with the slightest bit of bridge knowledge, would have queried why North was showing the Q on the bidding? ....


The time to query a player's judgment is not during a hand (such as during a POSTmortem).

A player's skill can identify characteristics of information such as its usefulness, truthfulness, dubious nature… and may (or not) guide him as to what to do about it.
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#17 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 07:03

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-May-18, 05:17, said:

They clearly indicate that in Bridge circles the use of the term Q widely is understood as cue/control.


Must be rather narrow circles?
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#18 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2022-May-18, 07:06

View Postaxman, on 2022-May-18, 06:34, said:

The time to query a player's judgment is not during a hand (such as during a POSTmortem).

A player's skill can identify characteristics of information such as its usefulness, truthfulness, dubious nature… and may (or not) guide him as to what to do about it.

If a player's explanation is unclear or insufficient then that is the time to (immediately) request clarification(s).
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#19 User is offline   Evies Dad 

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Posted 2022-May-19, 16:14

As someone who reads without pronouncing the words in my head I would not equate Q and cue.

What would non English speakers make of it ?

Just feels lazy to me.
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#20 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-May-19, 17:45

View PostEvies Dad, on 2022-May-19, 16:14, said:

As someone who reads without pronouncing the words in my head I would not equate Q and cue.

What would non English speakers make of it ?

Just feels lazy to me.


Que?
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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