[bigmax]

What is your favorite meaning to 3 level responces to partners 15-17 nt?

[mike777]

Jlall, on Jun 22 2005, 12:37 PM, said:

It is impossible to answer this question. The 3 level bids should fit in with your entire NT system, filling holes and gaps. I prefer 4 way transfers, super accept with bidding the suit. So I like:

3C=5-5 minors invite
3D=5-5 minors forcing
3H=31(54)
3S=13(54)

With minor suit stayman this system would be silly.

Playing MSS then:
3C,3D=INVITATIONAL
3H, 3S=FRAGMENT, STRENGTH FOR 3NT, NO 4 CARD MAJOR, THE other major is extremely weak, typical 3H hand:
X=KXX=QXXX=AQTX
These hands are minor suit oriented and are not quite strong enough to be making a slam try.

follow ups:
3nt to play ...obviously you need the unbid major to be well stopped
4C unsuitable for 3nt, clubs are at least as long as your diamonds..Not forcing but pard will often raise.
4D unsuitable for 3nt, diamonds are better than clubs, Not forcing but pard will often raise.

[inquiry]

I like the following, I will stretch a tiny bit to 2 level to help explain...

• 1NT - 2♠ = shows clubs. But instead of super accept, I like denial accept. So, if partner bids 3♣ he likes clubs, if he bids 2NT he does not/minimum
  
• 1NT - 2NT = here is the payback. This shows diamonds, and if partner has the super accept he (by golly) bids diamonds! If he is doesn't like diamonds. he rebids 3♣. This allows you to bid 2NT also with weak minor two suiters, and if partner bids 3♣ you pass. With just diamonds, you correct to 3♦
  
• 1NT - 3♣ is minor two suiter and game force
  
• 1NT - 3♦ is checkback asking opener to show five card major if he has one (of course, if you don't open 1NT with five card majors, don' tneed this).
  
• 1NT - 3♥/3♠ = splinter in bid major (1 or 0) with four in other major, GF.

This is not original, it is part of the ETM victory over 1NT structure.

Ben

[flytoox]

I also have a related question. If I want to play 2S as minor stayman OR NT invitational. How does it work?

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Jun 22 2005, 02:51 PM, said:

I also have a related question. If I want to play 2S as minor stayman OR NT invitational. How does it work?

Partner will rebid 2NT with a minimum hand. So if it was game invite in Notrump, responder passes. If it was a weak minor two suiter, responder bids 3♣ pass/correct. If it was a strong minor two suiter, partner bids something other than 3♣.

On the other hand if NT opener has better than minimum hand, over 2♠, he rebids his better minor. Responder can bid 3NT if it was a 3NT invite, can pass if it was weak minor two suiter, or can bid a new suit forcing, to show minor two suiter that is unwilling to play just at the three level without further exploration. Some play it as minor two suiter, invite to 3NT or weak with diamonds (weak with diamonds, correct whatevr partner bids to 3♦).

[whereagles]

bigmax, on Jun 22 2005, 05:34 PM, said:

What is your favorite meaning to 3 level responces to partners 15-17 nt?

My favourite? Transfer splinter

3C = diam singleton
3D = heart singleton

etc..

[Double !]

whereagles, on Jun 22 2005, 04:21 PM, said:

bigmax, on Jun 22 2005, 05:34 PM, said:

What is your favorite meaning to 3 level responces to partners 15-17 nt?

My favourite? Transfer splinter

3C = diam singleton
3D = heart singleton

etc..

Very Interesting

I prefer 4-suit transfers with pre-acceptance and all 3-level bids as direct splinters, primarily because it seems to fit in with my preferred 1NT range of 13-16. Since I play with few people in real life (I have no time), and with my favorite P once every year or so if I'm lucky, this has seemed easiest on memory slots. But, I think that the transfer splinter have a lot of merit, and must give it some serious consideration. I also like the ETM use of the 2-spade bid: I need to go to my bridge matters site and read up on this some more. I am pleased to find someone else out there who plays something similar, and not the 5-5 minors and major splinters a la "conventional expert wisdom". I rarely get these 5-5 hands except for weak 5-5 reds or weak 5-5 blacks, but frequently get dealt hands that I would splinter with.

BTW, I still strongly dislike strong NTs lolololol
Just don't like opening 1m on balanced minimums: it's too easy for opps to compete over. If you are going to compete over my balanced hands, you are starting at the 2-level.

[whereagles]

The idea of transfer splinters came from Ron Klinger's Keri book. If you want I can show you the continuations.

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Jun 22 2005, 06:56 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jun 22 2005, 02:51 PM, said:

I also have a related question. If I want to play 2S as minor stayman OR NT invitational. How does it work?

Partner will rebid 2NT with a minimum hand. So if it was game invite in Notrump, responder passes. If it was a weak minor two suiter, responder bids 3♣ pass/correct. If it was a strong minor two suiter, partner bids something other than 3♣.

On the other hand if NT opener has better than minimum hand, over 2♠, he rebids his better minor. Responder can bid 3NT if it was a 3NT invite, can pass if it was weak minor two suiter, or can bid a new suit forcing, to show minor two suiter that is unwilling to play just at the three level without further exploration. Some play it as minor two suiter, invite to 3NT or weak with diamonds (weak with diamonds, correct whatevr partner bids to 3♦).

Thx Ben.

[Gerben42]

My favorite starting with 2♠:

2♠ = weak oir slaminvite in either minor or invitational balanced (2NT with min, 3♣ with max) or 1-suited slam try in a minor.
2NT = both minors weak or strong (or 5431 with 3-1 majors and strong)
3m = invitational in that minor
3M = preemptive

[FrancesHinden]

As Justin said, it depends on the rest of your system.

In the partnership with the longest system file I play 3m as a single-suited slam try and 3M as a pre-empt. But all the hand types that other people have mentioned are fitted in somewhere else in the system.

We used to play a fairly complicated form of minor suit Stayman & it didn't come up once in 11 years. We changed to fitting in all the 3-suiters and find that these do come up, and often generate a large swing in. It just so happens that all the 3-suiters start at the 2-level in one way or another, so they aren't in our 3-level responses.

In a different partnership I play 3m as a SSST and 3M as a 3-suiter with shortage in the other major. This is probably what I would choose to play with a partner I was going to play for a long weekend with (say) but we weren't going to have a huge amount of system discussion.

[Winstonm]

Pard wanted to play 2S as MSS and I had a fancy to try 4-suit trxs; we solved the dilemna by creating our own methods.

3C-weak 5/5 minors
3D-strong 5/5 minors
3H/3S 54 minors, singleton in suit bid
3N-to play
2S-relay to 2N after which responder clarifies with:
3C-invite with 6 clubs
3D-invite with 6 diamonds
*3H-Quantitative Inverted Baron: 4 card suits bid down the line. Forcing to 4N.
3S-Single-suited Club slam try
3N-Single-suited Diamond slam try

Note with Quantitative Baron there is no need for 1N-4N. No idea yet what this bid means.

*After any 4/4 fit discovering bid, 4S means "Bingo". If the 4S "Bingo" bid is made by responder it is also RKCB; made by opener, 4N by responder is then RKBC.
4H at any time is "no fit but max and interested in 6N"; 4N without a fit is request to play there.

WinstonM

[Fluffy]

mmm why do you play such complicated things? My NT systems is kinda complicated already, but at the 3 level I just play:

3♣ transfer to 3♦
3X NAT slam try

[scoob]

whereagles, on Jun 22 2005, 09:30 PM, said:

The idea of transfer splinters came from Ron Klinger's Keri book. If you want I can show you the continuations.

yes please

[mr1303]

Works like this

1N 3C(diamond singleton)

3D = working max, no wasted values, seeking clarification
3H/S = 4 card suit, looking for support (3NT denies)
3NT = Diamonds well stopped, no interest in any other contracts
4H/S = 5 card suit.
4C = ropey diamond stopper, no 4 card major (but likely some wasted values)

A similar method applies for higher transfers. You have to be careful with a spade singleton, since partner will frequently be endplayed into bidding 4H in the moisian fit. Hence, if this is a problem (holding 3 low hearts) then 2NT followed by 3D is recommended.

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on Jun 23 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jun 23 2005, 06:20 AM, said:

Note with Quantitative Baron there is no need for 1N-4N.  No idea yet what this bid means.

Would deny a 4 card suit

Hmmm. I suppose that is right. So with KQ108xxx, QJ9xxx I guess we should bid 4N because we sure as heck don't have a 4-card suit.

[whereagles]

scoob, on Jun 23 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jun 22 2005, 09:30 PM, said:

The idea of transfer splinters came from Ron Klinger's Keri book. If you want I can show you the continuations.

yes please

It is basically what mr1303 said.

Let me just add that the transfer splinter is done with either a 3-suiter (intending to play in pards preference) or a minor 1-suiter (intending to bid and play 5m if pard doesn't bid 3NT).

In the context of Keri, the splinter is usually a bid to play just game. Responder has a lot of other gadgets in Keri to gauge a slam with very strong 1- and 3-suiters.

[Free]

I like:

3♣ = weak with both minors (55+), to play a 3m contract
3♦ = invitational+ with both Majors (55+)
3♥ = 1-4-4-4 GF, might be slam try
3♠ = 4-1-4-4 GF, might be slam try

This however is part of an entire NT structure where we can show 5-3M GF hands and (31)(54)'s as well. And most important: it's for a weak NT...