[flytoox]

I met such a hand last night:
BOTH VUL, DEALER EAST
S: XX
H: AQXX
D: AKXX
C: QT9

S: KQ9 S: ATXXXX
H: KJTX H: XXXX
D: T9XXX D: -
C: X C: JXX
S: XX
H: X
D: QJXX
C: AKXXXX

AUCTION WENT:
W N E S
Pass pass
pass 1N pass 3N
all pass

East lead a small s and we quickly down 2. Some table bid to 5c after east's 2s opening. Many table reached same 3N like us in the same way.

Fred also posed a similar hand on the BBO about whether you should bid 3N or minor game after pd's strong 1NT or 2NT.

The problems here are:
1, should south explore the possibility of minor game when holding 6-4 in minor suits?
2, perhaps not very important, would it be better if North open suit rather than NT?

thx in advance.
Hongjun

[Codo]

1. yes he should have explored, but not because of his weakness in the majors, no because of his strength. There is a chance of a minor suit slam.
If you swith the two major queens to the ace of spade, 7 diamond is a fair spot, so looking for 6 will be a nice idea.

To play 3 NT with a suit with xx opps. xx happens.
Maybe at imps, 5 club is a fair goal, but I doubt, that you will win 5 club more often then 3 NT after pd opened a strong NT.

2. To open in a suit while having a hand in the NT range will not improve your bidding.
They did so some 70 years ago, where 1 NT promised stoppers in 3 suits. But this was not wise, so times changed this. (Besides for some lost souls, who still plays bridge like living in the golden 30ies.)

Kind Regards

Roland

[flytoox]

Quote

1. yes he should have explored, but not because of his weakness in the majors, no because of his strength. There is a chance of a minor suit slam.
If you swith the two major queens to the ace of spade, 7 diamond is a fair spot, so looking for 6 will be a nice idea.

To play 3 NT with a suit with xx opps. xx happens.
Maybe at imps, 5 club is a fair goal, but I doubt, that you will win 5 club more often then 3 NT after pd opened a strong NT.

2. To open in a suit while having a hand in the NT range will not improve your bidding.
They did so some 70 years ago, where 1 NT promised stoppers in 3 suits. But this was not wise, so times changed this. (Besides for some lost souls, who still plays bridge like living in the golden 30ies.)

Kind Regards

Roland

Hi, Roland, what is the sequence you think will be a better way to minor game or slam after NT opening? 1N-2S(1)-3C(2)-3D(3)-3H(4)-4C(5)-5C/D(6)?

(1)Transfer
(2)accept
(3)2nd suit
(4)fit 2nd suit and control bid
(5)control
(6) signoff

[Codo]

Hi Hongjun,

I guess I had not been able to find a way half as good as yours to 5 or 6 of a minor.
For all players, who play minor suit stayman, this hand is "easy". But I play transfers like you and just with my regular pd I would KNOW, that 3 Diamond is a second suit. And I must confess, that I am not sure, if 3 Hearts does accept diamonds, I think it is a cuebid, showing a fit somewhere (else 3 NT) and clears the fit suit later.
So we may have struggeled to 5 C/D just because of our slam try.

Kind Regards

Roland

[luis]

BOTH VUL, DEALER EAST
S: XX
H: AQXX
D: AKXX
C: QT9

S: KQ9 S: ATXXXX
H: KJTX H: XXXX
D: T9XXX D: -
C: X C: JXX
S: XX
H: X
D: QJXX
C: AKXXXX

This is the German Moscito auction noting that South will open the bidding.

1d (10-14 no 4M) 1s (INV+ relay)
2h (UNB c>d) 2s (relay)
2n (short hearts) 3c (relay)
3h (2-1-4-6) 3s (controls?)
4c (3) 5c
pass

[flytoox]

Quote

Hi Hongjun,

I guess I had not been able to find a way half as good as yours to 5 or 6 of a minor.
For all players, who play minor suit stayman, this hand is "easy". But I play transfers like you and just with my regular pd I would KNOW, that 3 Diamond is a second suit. And I must confess, that I am not sure, if 3 Hearts does accept diamonds, I think it is a cuebid, showing a fit somewhere (else 3 NT) and clears the fit suit later.
So we may have struggeled to 5 C/D just because of our slam try.

Kind Regards

Roland

Hi, Roland, I found 3d is problematic too, it could be a weak hand with d suit. When do you use minor stayman? With 4-4 and slam interest or 5-5, stayman is sure better. DO you still use stayman when minor are 6-4?
regards
hongjun

[bglover]

Even if you do not play MSS the south hand should make whatever bid shows strong clubs in your system. The south hand is more than mildly slammish opposite a 1NT opening and is not well suited to NT play. There are too many hands north could have that may produce 12 trix even if he is on the low end of his NT opening.

I think no matter what the scoring is (MPs or IMPS), a 3n signoff by south is wrong. And, as Roland said, if you start looking for slam and discover you both lack a spade control, you will end up in 5 minor by "accident."

[hrothgar]

To me, the crucial issue is why South didn't chose to open with his 6-4 with concentrated honors.

XX
x
QJxx
AKxxxx

is a very strong hand.
South's initial pass ruins North's ability to evaluate the hand and makes further auctions much more difficult.

With this said and done, many systems provide a mechanism by which responder can explore for a weak doubleton in the NT opener's hand.

For example, playing Scanian, 1NT - 2NT asks partner to show a weak doubleton.

[luis]

About the weak doubleton:
I'm not sure if asking an 1NT opener for a weak doubleton is a good idea, if you decide to ask and opener shows a weak doubleton where you have xx, or xxx then you have a good advantage since you know 3nt is not making and you can try your luck in another game. But frequently opener will show a doubleton where you have AQx, or KJx, or Axx, or similar. Then you have a very bad problem:
- If you decide to play 3n your opps will make the best lead,crossing your hand and knowing what declarer has in the suit, and sometimes if they don't have a natural lead on that suit you will be in a very bad position relative to the panel. This is really terrible!
- You can decide not to play 3n knowing the panel is playing 3nt and end up in a hopeless minor suit game or moysian fit when the panel is playing 3nt making with a favorable lead or making even with the feared lead.

So if you are really hyper-scientific then it is surely better to SHOW a weak doubleton instead of asking, if declarer bids 3nt then at least they are leading into the stoppers and not crossing them..... Anyway I don't like that approach either.

[hrothgar]

I'm not sure if asking an 1NT opener for a weak doubleton is a good idea, if you decide to ask and opener shows a weak doubleton where you have xx, or xxx then you have a good advantage since you know 3nt is not making and you can try your luck in another game

As I mentioned before, I don't think that it is particularly useful to judge the merits of an individual bid in isolation from the rest of the system. Using the auction 1N-2N to ask for a weak doubleton is an integral part of the Scanian NT structure. The 2NT bid serves a number of purposes, however, the two most important are

(a) Bidding game invitational hands with a long minor. [If the NT opener has a weak doubleton in your suit you can pass the response. If not, you're in 3NT]
( An anti-lemming bid allowing the partnership to avoid 3NT with xx opposite xx

Personally, I happen to like this response structure and have gotten good results with it. [Note, playing Scanian, I would have responded 2S over 1NT, asking opener to clarify his minor suit holds and show range]

[flytoox]

Quote

To me, the crucial issue is why South didn't chose to open with his 6-4 with concentrated honors.

XX
x
QJxx
AKxxxx

is a very strong hand.
South's initial pass ruins North's ability to evaluate the hand and makes further auctions much more difficult.

With this said and done, many systems provide a mechanism by which responder can explore for a weak doubleton in the NT opener's hand.

For example, playing Scanian, 1NT - 2NT asks partner to show a weak doubleton.

I dont think south hand is strong enough to open. I did consider 3c though. shape is good only if you find a fit. Though opening it here may help pd to find 5minor, but most of time it will mislead pd, making pd think u have a better hand.

[hrothgar]

I dont think south hand is strong enough to open. I did consider 3c though. shape is good only if you find a fit. Though opening it here may help pd to find 5minor, but most of time it will mislead pd, making pd think u have a better hand.

BIG difference of opinion here.

I consider this hand an opening playing "sound" minor opening structures such as 2/1 game force or Kaplan-Shienwold. [For what its worth, the K-S hand evaluator indicates that this hand is worth 13.40 KS points] Playing a less stringent method such as SAYC or Acol, opening 1C is mandatory.

[flytoox]

Quote

I dont think south hand is strong enough to open. I did consider 3c though. shape is good only if you find a fit. Though opening it here may help pd to find 5minor, but most of time it will mislead pd, making pd think u have a better hand.

BIG difference of opinion here.

I consider this hand an opening playing "sound" minor opening structures such as 2/1 game force or Kaplan-Shienwold. [For what its worth, the K-S hand evaluator indicates that this hand is worth 13.40 KS points] Playing a less stringent method such as SAYC or Acol, opening 1C is mandatory.

I think whether south should open is not that importnat here. Let's assume North is the dealer and open 1N, same question remain.

Another question I just think of is, what south should do when holding:
S: XX
H: XX
D: QJXX
C: AKXXX

Good bidding may be able to distinguish these two hands, though I donot know. Any hints are appreciated.
Hongjun

[hrothgar]

Playing the Scanian NT structure I would expect the auction to proceed as follows:

With hand 1: xx x QJxx AKxxxx

1NT - 2S 1NT = 15-17 balanced. 2S = asks for range (show minors with max)
2NT - 3H 2NT = Minimum opening, 3H = Both minors, maximum hand, singleton Heart
4D - 5C 4D = Sets trump, 5C = Cue bid
5D 5D = No spade control

Hand 2 is significantly weaker: xx xx QJxx AKxxx
The lack of a sixth club significantly decreases hand strength (the K-R hand evaluator considers this hand an 11.7) - however, its still worth a game force over the 1NT opening.

1N - 2N 1NT = 15-17, 2NT = asks for weak doubleton
3S - 4C 3S = Doubleton Spade, 4C = Game force, natural
5C 5C = We have a fit

Note the difference in the initial response:
The first hand is looking for slam
The second hand is trying to identify the most reasonable game

[Free]

I do think that South should open 1C. He has 10 HCP (and from there losers count) and 6 losers where you at need 7. So he has a better hand than nothing. If he descides to pass, he should explore the minors, not for game but for a slam...