[mr1303]

Lets have a look at the auction:

Both opponents are bidding clubs here. Since we hold 2, the chances of partner having a club stack is approaching zero, unless LHO has psyched, which seems unlikely. So I fail to see how passing here will give us problems. I don't have any problems with double being take-out, but this isn't the hand for it. Something like:

Ax
Kxxx
AKxxxx
x

would be a better bid, showing a shortage in clubs and tolerance for all other suits. It should also show extras.

I also feel that double should be take-out from the other side of the table. E.g holding:

Kxxxx
Axxx
Kxx
x

With the actual hand, the spade support is greatly lacking to make a take-out double here.

[luke warm]

flytoox, on Jun 21 2005, 04:38 AM, said:

luke warm, on Jun 21 2005, 12:18 AM, said:

this is confusing me.. ok, let's stick to standard bidding (no negative free bids)... now then, 2♠ is obviously forcing, right? if it is, it seems to me that 3♥ would have to be

again, in standard, if 2♠ then 3♥ is forcing, how do you show spades and/or hearts and *not* force? it seems to me it has to start with a negative double... after all, if i wanted to force (standard, remember?) i'd bid my suit(s) freely

Jimmy, 2S then 3H is 100% forcing. I strongly suggest you to get a copy of Lawrence's complete book on contested auction, rather than reading some apparently misleading post here.

I can even buy you a copy if you have any doubt. But you have to pay me double if you find it is really great:)

hongjun, i agree with you... as a matter of fact, my first post in this thread says that... without nfb, 2s and 3h have to be forcing... now *if* they're forcing, there has to be some way to bid that *doesn't* show a force..

edit: btw, i have that particular book

[inquiry]

Let's compare some auctions, and discussion options for the meaning of openers double of 3♣...

Auction one...

1D (Pass) 1S (3C)
DBL

Auction two
1D (2C) Pass (3C)
DBL

Auction three
1D (Pass) Pass 3C
DBL

Auction Four
1D (2C) 2S (3C)
DBL


One option is double is for penalty. This is easy if you agree all doubles above 2♠ are for penalty. I suspect few play this way.

One option is double is for takeout in all cases. This is easy if you agree to the basic principle all doubles are for takeut until a fit is found. BTW, I consider snapdragon a takeout double.... call it what every you like...

What other optons exist? I have seen support doubles played even at the three level, so that would be a possibility in auction one. I don't think this is a good strategy however.

There is the so called "action double" which shows unclear direction, extra values, and at least two card in the suit they bid. Action doubles are very useful at times when you have a hand that doesn't fall into the takeout or penalty range.

I prefer to play all four of these as takeout. What is the "problem" with using them as takeout? The problem people will mention is what if you have a club stack and want to make a penalty double? The answer is in that case, you pass. If your partner is short in their suit, he will reopen with a double and you make a penalty pass. So when you are stacked in clubs (and they bid clubs), you can reliably count on your partner being short in their suit. This means when the bidding comes around to your partner, he must make a takeout double if he is short in their suit (in case you are "stacked" there).

So now we come to the time to compare the auctions... and the options.

Auction one
Penalty double -- you go them with no support for partner
Action double -- you show extra value, a few clubs, no heart support
takeout double -- shows diamonds and spades, and here (since partner can be very weak, extra values as you are focing a bid at the three level).

If you play penalty double and your diamonds are not rebiddable and you lack heart support, you must pass even with some good hands. Furthermore if your passs, I assume your partners doubles would also be penatly, so you can miss some easy competiting contracts often. If you play action doubles, as long as you have two clubs, you can double anytime you have extra values and no fit. Pass otherwise. Takeout double, with penalty double hand you pass and await your partners reopening doulbe (hopefully). With shortness and no support you rebid your suit or double with support for the fourth suit.

Auction Four is identical to one, EXCEPT, there if you have the penalty double kind of hand, you can surely pass because after your partners 2♠ call he will not pass out 3♣ as a reopening (expecially given his certain shortness in clubs) is mandatory. Action doubles also work very well on this auction, and if you have a partner who will agree to play them, this is an ideal place to put them in.

Auction 2 and 3 are dangerous doubles and must show tremendous extra values. I use these as TAKEOUT as as well. An action double here might make more sense if it shows a lot of quick tricks and a couple of clubs.

But this brings us back to the hand in this poll. You hold barely an opening hand:
x K9xx Axxxxx Ax

On the auction 1D (pass) 1S (3C) , I would pass with this hand. Sure I have a long diamond suit and four card heart suit. But partner didn't promise much with 1♠ and lack of fit and lack of hcp urge prudence. Also if partner happens to ahve clubs, they will be poorly located in front ofthe club bidder, and he might be disappointed in my trick taking ablility if I make a takeout double and he passes with some legnth is clubs.

On the auction 1D (2C) 2S (3C), I double readily with this hand. The reason is now partner has shown considerable values with his "forcing" 2♠. So I double here for takeout to show my hearts and lack of spade fit. Action doubles would be ok on this hand too, but then you would have to pass with this hand. Such a pass would convey just the right message (lack of extra values == because 1. No suit bid, and 2. No action double). The advantage of the takout double here is if parnter is short in teh red suits and has some club honors, they are now BEHIND the club overcaller and he can convert to penalty. We don't have a lot, but what we do have is fairly prime. We can also probably mangage a spade ruff as partner will have entry on this auction if he passes 3♣X.

So, I feel like after the "forcing" 2♠ free bid, a takeout double is mandatory with four cards in the heart suit and no spade fit. This double implies, also, long diamonds (since I am willing for partner to bid diamonds if he lacks sufficient heart support).

Ben

On the auction 1D (

[inquiry]

Echognome, on Jun 20 2005, 09:37 PM, said:

When 3 suits have been bid naturally, I thought double was penalty except for by agreement (such as snapdragon).

Just so everyone knows, a snapdragon double is when your LHO opens, partner overcalls and next hand bids a third suit.. something like this

(1S) - 2S - (2D) - DBL

This double shows heart suit and at least club tolerance. There is really no need for fancy names like snapdragon, responsive, negative... they are all takeout double. Here you want to takeout diamonds, the only unbid suit is hearts. If you were soley interested in hearts, you could just bid 2♥..so the double also means you are willing to hear partner bid 3♣.

But ok, back to the issue of after three suits have been bid, double must be for penalty concept. I refer you to the excellent text by Robson/Segal on Partnership bidding at bridge.

South  WEST  NORTH  EAST
1♣     DBL    1♥    3♦
  ?

They recommend DBL along with explaination (see page 185-186)

This example is immediately followed by several more (page 186) where double after three suits are bid are for takeout.

---

You may not agree with the use of double after three s uits still as takeout, but if you never have considered the possibility, it might be worth reading chapter five of the Segal/Robson book to see how it is played.

Ben

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Jun 21 2005, 01:43 PM, said:

Let's compare some auctions, and discussion options for the meaning of openers double of 3♣...

Auction one...

1D (Pass) 1S (3C)
DBL

Auction two
1D (2C) Pass (3C)
DBL

Auction three
1D (Pass) Pass 3C
DBL

Auction Four
1D (2C) 2S (3C)
DBL


One option is double is for penalty. This is easy if you agree all doubles above 2♠ are for penalty. I suspect few play this way.

One option is double is for takeout in all cases. This is easy if you agree to the basic principle all doubles are for takeut until a fit is found. BTW, I consider snapdragon a takeout double.... call it what every you like...

What other optons exist? I have seen support doubles played even at the three level, so that would be a possibility in auction one. I don't think this is a good strategy however.

There is the so called "action double" which shows unclear direction, extra values, and at least two card in the suit they bid. Action doubles are very useful at times when you have a hand that doesn't fall into the takeout or penalty range.

I prefer to play all four of these as takeout. What is the "problem" with using them as takeout? The problem people will mention is what if you have a club stack and want to make a penalty double? The answer is in that case, you pass. If your partner is short in their suit, he will reopen with a double and you make a penalty pass. So when you are stacked in clubs (and they bid clubs), you can reliably count on your partner being short in their suit. This means when the bidding comes around to your partner, he must make a takeout double if he is short in their suit (in case you are "stacked" there).

So now we come to the time to compare the auctions... and the options.

Auction one
Penalty double -- you go them with no support for partner
Action double -- you show extra value, a few clubs, no heart support
takeout double -- shows diamonds and spades, and here (since partner can be very weak, extra values as you are focing a bid at the three level).

If you play penalty double and your diamonds are not rebiddable and you lack heart support, you must pass even with some good hands. Furthermore if your passs, I assume your partners doubles would also be penatly, so you can miss some easy competiting contracts often. If you play action doubles, as long as you have two clubs, you can double anytime you have extra values and no fit. Pass otherwise. Takeout double, with penalty double hand you pass and await your partners reopening doulbe (hopefully). With shortness and no support you rebid your suit or double with support for the fourth suit.

Auction Four is identical to one, EXCEPT, there if you have the penalty double kind of hand, you can surely pass because after your partners 2♠ call he will not pass out 3♣ as a reopening (expecially given his certain shortness in clubs) is mandatory. Action doubles also work very well on this auction, and if you have a partner who will agree to play them, this is an ideal place to put them in.

Auction 2 and 3 are dangerous doubles and must show tremendous extra values. I use these as TAKEOUT as as well. An action double here might make more sense if it shows a lot of quick tricks and a couple of clubs.

But this brings us back to the hand in this poll. You hold barely an opening hand:
x K9xx Axxxxx Ax

On the auction 1D (pass) 1S (3C) , I would pass with this hand. Sure I have a long diamond suit and four card heart suit. But partner didn't promise much with 1♠ and lack of fit and lack of hcp urge prudence. Also if partner happens to ahve clubs, they will be poorly located in front ofthe club bidder, and he might be disappointed in my trick taking ablility if I make a takeout double and he passes with some legnth is clubs.

On the auction 1D (2C) 2S (3C), I double readily with this hand. The reason is now partner has shown considerable values with his "forcing" 2♠. So I double here for takeout to show my hearts and lack of spade fit. Action doubles would be ok on this hand too, but then you would have to pass with this hand. Such a pass would convey just the right message (lack of extra values == because 1. No suit bid, and 2. No action double). The advantage of the takout double here is if parnter is short in teh red suits and has some club honors, they are now BEHIND the club overcaller and he can convert to penalty. We don't have a lot, but what we do have is fairly prime. We can also probably mangage a spade ruff as partner will have entry on this auction if he passes 3♣X.

So, I feel like after the "forcing" 2♠ free bid, a takeout double is mandatory with four cards in the heart suit and no spade fit. This double implies, also, long diamonds (since I am willing for partner to bid diamonds if he lacks sufficient heart support).

Ben

On the auction 1D (

Ben, I agree with you that in sequence 2,3,4 dbl should be played as for T/O. However, in the sequence 1, I am not sure it is so too. They didnot show a fit and I am sitting behind. Why should I play it for takeout? You might say if you want to dbl pd can always reopen with double. But that will put lots of pressure on pd when he holds some boring hand.


Auction 3 is actually quite different. In this sequence, RHO's 3C shows a good hand and good suit. So there is no reason to think we can set 3C. They could even have a game.

In auction 4, I have no strong feeling. The advantage of playing takeout dbl here is you can show the heart suit before LHO reraise to 4/5C. Otherwise, pd can always bid out his heart suit. The minus is you cannot dbl with a hand like X,Kxx,AKxxx,Axxx. I dont mind defending 3CX with this misfit hand.

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Jun 21 2005, 08:43 AM, said:

Let's compare some auctions, and discussion options for the meaning of openers double of 3♣...

Auction one...

1D (Pass) 1S (3C)
DBL

Auction two
1D (2C) Pass (3C)
DBL

Auction three
1D (Pass) Pass 3C
DBL

Auction Four
1D (2C) 2S (3C)
DBL

auction 1 i'd play as primarily penalties... partner can now make a decision, knowing i have decent clubs...

auction 2 i'd play as takeout with a good hand

auction 3, ditto

on auction 4 i'd play the double as probably 4 hearts and 3 spades... with the hand fly showed (X,Kxx,AKxxx,Axxx) i don't have a problem passing

i hope none of this contradicts anything i've said elsewhere