[golfacer]

I've played many of the ACBL pay tournaments here. I was recently kibitzing an ACBL individual tournament when this board was played:

Scoring: MP

West North East South
----------------------------
---- ---- 1NT pass
2♦ pass 2♥ pass
pass 3♣ pass pass
pass

---

To his credit, South called the director, apparently to get an explanation for his partner's bid. However, no adjustment was made, and the player in question finished near the top.

Also, I've had an experience where one of my opponents had entered as a sub and had obviously seen the cards (opened a weak 2♠ and raised partner's 4♠ to 6, getting 12 tricks).

Now for my question: How are the players protected against cheating during the tournaments? I've been told that, currently, the only recourse is to notify abuse@bridgebase.com if something happens. However, the potential cheater still wins the points and the innocent players would still lose points and feel upset about what happened. I understand the director of a tournament can't be expected to have time to investigate players while the tournament is in progress, so I'd suggest that an expert investigator be available at all times to make an immediate ruling in these cases.

[mr1303]

Don't really see what the problem is here. Unless N was a sub and looked at the cards for the rest of the deck, then there's no offence committed. Just because an action isn't considered normal, it doesn't make it illegal. Besides which, 3C should go off one at least, and if doubled concedes 200 against a not exactly laydown 2H which is +110 at best

[pbleighton]

"Just because an action isn't considered normal, it doesn't make it illegal."

Ye, I would assume it was a bad bid, not cheating.

Peter

[ellie26]

Hmm,, all I can add is that there are many bad bids that are turning into good scores on BBO. Seems it never works for me !! When I make a bad bid ( happens many times), I am usually punished severely for it.

I've kibbed some at acbl and because of the questionable bids, plays, etc, I normally refuse to play in pay tourneys. I want to support BBO, and have a few BBO bucks in my account. However, I will have no part of anything that looks like blatant cheating.

This has been one of my pet peeves, and I have suggested the formation of an independent committee of acbl directors and reputable players to scrutinize some of the boards that look questionable. I'm not saying that my idea will work, but at least make it appear that there is an honest effort to discourage any unethical behavior.



ellie

[inquiry]

Let me address a few issues here.

1) The game was matchpoint, where balancing with less than normal values is more frequent than in "real bridge". See for instance the discussion of a balancing 3♣ bid on a somewhat similiar auction with less only 3 hcp http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=72492 . On that hand, a few people expressed the thoguht that a balancing 3♣ bid might be acceptable with such a hand at MP. That hand held 4♠ and 5♣, however. The balancing doube was generally thought somewhat poorly of, because partner might choose to defend. So while I find 3♣ here a "wrong bid", it certainly is not so wrong as to be a clear indication of cheating.

2) Let me further state that the BBO does have an active program to go after cheaters, involving extensive hand reviews of people reliably accused of cheating. If this hand was submitted as "proof" this player was self-kibitzing, it would typical be ignored. If this hand was submitted along with a report that this player came in first or second place in the individual event, it is possible all the hands of from that individual would be examined to determine if complete investigation was necessary. We NEVER (well almost never), take action against a "cheater" based upn one hand or day of play. The way most cheaters are "caught" is someone submits to abuse not one hand, but several hands from over a fairly short period of time that support the allegation. Abuse then wiill assign the alleged person to a qualified and experience bridge player to furher investigate. How the investigations are performed will remain a secret, but the BBO has banned a significant number of people for cheating, and I can assure you that investigations are going on daily in this area.

But ellie is right about one thing. Bad bids are usually punished. Someone who habitually makes "lucky" bad bids is VERY EASILY caught. What ususaully happens when someone submits a hand like this one that worked well from someone is that if you look, they bid like this all the time and 8 times out of 10 they get punished. We have actually had many people who come in dead last in a tournment be accused of cheating because one of their many stupid bids turned to gold in the event. The player who was unlucky enough to be sitting at the table at the time reports it. However, anyone who took the time to look at the other hands of the event would see poor bridge, not cheating was what was going on.

You can alll help stop cheating. When you suspect it in a tourney, after the event is over, take a look at the persons standing, and a few of their "good" scores (myhands will make this easy). If you find sufficient funny looking stuff, send links to the myhand site for the funny hands and a note of explaination to abuse. That will go a long way to stop this, and people who report in THAT manner are the biggest help to us in throwing out cheaters.

Ben

[hotShot]

3♣ is a good bid! Not because it is good bridge, but because it's an BBO tourney. BBO tourneys are short, scoring averadge boards won't help you to get to the top. Take a look at ACBL tourney #923 (12 Boards) winner 75%, second 63%. If you are a very good player, you will produce an extra trick for your side, if possible. Giving you a good score each board.
If you are not the best players, you need to score unusual results, producing extreme results, hopefully more good ones than bad ones.
A top adds about 8% to your score, averadge about 4%. If you produce 8 tops (8*8%=64%) and 4 botton scores, you will at least be in the top 3. if you produce 12 averadges you will end up(12*4% =48%) in the middle of the field.

Let us see bidding goes:
1NT - pass - 2♦ - pass
2♥ -pass - pass

Opener has something like 15-17, his partner less than needed for game, and they may not have a fit. So to North it is obious that his Partner has to have more than 12+HCP. South values are well placed behind opps strong hand. Since South did not bid, he probably won't have a 5 card suit. Since North hold 3♥ it is obvious that his partner won't have more than 3. If opps have an 8 card fit, he can have 2 at most.

If north passes 2♥ he gets the result everybody gets => no gain.
If EW rise to 3♥ or 3[NT], it is easier to beat them. => good score
If E gets declarer he will most likely misplace a lot of points and cards. =>better score
3♣ is lead directing, so if E ist going to be declarer South now knows what to lead. => better score
If there is no ♣ fit, it is almost sure that you have one in ♠ or ♦.
=> limited danger (it is limited in MP's anyway)
If opps forget to dbl, one down -100 is better than -110.

North bid forces EW into a top/bottom situation, hoping for the better end for his side.
In this case, the better end is for EW. They should get:
♥AK and a ruff, ♠A and ♣A probably leading to -1 dbled.

If he knew the hands he should have kept his mouth shut.

[rona_]

Quote

Now for my question: How are the players protected against cheating during the tournaments? I've been told that, currently, the only recourse is to notify abuse@bridgebase.com if something happens. However, the potential cheater still wins the points and the innocent players would still lose points and feel upset about what happened. I understand the director of a tournament can't be expected to have time to investigate players while the tournament is in progress, so I'd suggest that an expert investigator be available at all times to make an immediate ruling in these cases.

I don't think this is a thread where the finger is pointed at a cheat. The original poster asked a question but most people wandered off the subject....Maybe they never got down to the last paragraph?

[inquiry]

rona_, on Jun 17 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

I don't think this is a thread where the finger is pointed at a cheat. The original poster asked a question but most people wandered off the subject....Maybe they never got down to the last paragraph?

I think virtually eveyone addressed the issue of how a player can be protected from a cheat in real time in a tournment. The answer is he can not. As I said, one hand is NEVER (well almost never) sufficient evidence that someone is cheating. There is no possible way a director could make a effective rulling of cheating in a case like this. A TD might, issue an adjusted board, but I would not think much of a TD who, looking at one hand, decided a player must be cheating (again, there are some hands that can be constructed/found that have no other explaination, this one is not even close).

I also addressed in abstract how cheating allegations are handled by BBO staff. Abuse ask one of a few people to investigate, if they find evidence of cheating, others look to see if they agree. The investigation is quite extensive. There is no way we would ever declearer someone as a cheater within a time period of an online tourney. These investigations generally take days, and often, weeks. My impression and experience is the BBO would rather allow a dozen cheaters go unpunished than to wrongly punish a non-cheater as a cheater, which explains some long investigations.

[uday]

The players are primarily protected by their unwillingness to cheat in a card game for no stakes. Some people will (and do) cheat anyway.

The ACBL club games don't do anything special in this area -- I require the TDS to follow procedures and contact abuse@ with cheating issues like any other club. I don't want the ACBL TDs spending time on this. They lack the tools, and they have better things to do.

We don't usually strip someone of his points. When we do, we don't go back in time and bump up the other points.

The other players shouldnt get involved at the table. Most cheating accusations are false alarms. If you suspect someone cheats, the only correct thing to do is to email abuse@ along with some documentation.

We will almost never act against possible cheaters in "realtime." It is extremely rare that there is enough data to do that, and someone qualified to judge online, and someone authorized to act online.

We do have investigators, and some of them may well be experts. But this isnt enough of a problem to require someone standing by while each tourney runs its course.

[ellie26]

Uday, am I understanding you right when you say that other players shouldn't get involved? Are you asking that kibitzers not report cheating accusations ? I have no problem with that as long as I understand it correctly.

I have no idea how many cheating accusations that abuse receives in a week and I have no idea what is involved. All I know is the attention that has been brought to suspect cheaters and how it takes away from the enjoyment of the game. I do know of one episode where at least 8 kibbers at one time were watching rather strange plays at one table and I doubt if all 8 kibbers ( mostly experienced players) could be that wrong. Finally, the cheating was so obvious that the director was called to the table by one of the opps to look at the bidding sequence.

I hope that BBO doesn't fall in the category where it is acceptable to cheat, and and I say that because cheating online is so easy. That is the reason I so strongly feel that one case of continual suspect cheating warrants attention. However, if the management feels that they don't want the issue raised, then please let us know and I, for one, won't pursue it.

Back when kibitzing was disallowed in an ACBL game ( maybe as a test) to hopefully limit one of the aspects of online cheating, I protested vehemently as I didn't want my freedom restricted and I felt that the kibitzers were the better at detecting cheating suspects than the CIA,, lol..

Anyway, I know it isn't easy and a balance has to be reached where the players feel they are treated fairly and not being subjected to bad score results because of others who are unethical and have no respect for the integrity of the game.

Hope that sheds a little light on the issue.

ellie

[uday]

I don't know why I said that. I didnt mean it the way it sounded. I'll edit that post now.

I meant the other players should not get involved at the table. Don't accuse each other of cheating, just report it to abuse@bridgebase.com with some documentation and we'll take it from there. Don't email each other, don't start smear campaigns, etc. Just email us. Then give us some breathing room in which to collect data.

It is easy to say "the cheating was obvious". It is less easy to defend a decision to boot a player because the "cheating was obvious". As the top of this thread shows, what is cheating to one is good bridge to another. We were summoned because people were sure this person was cheating.

Was he cheating? You have an opinion, I have an opinion. I'd prefer to be as sure as I can be in these matters.

Cheating online is extremely easy. It is far easier when specs are allowed at tourneys.


And, no, BBO doesnt fall into the category you describe. Convince me someone cheats, and we'll do what we can to stop the cheating.